choice Magazine

Beyond the Page ~ Jeb Bates - Practical Resilience: How to make resilience work for your clients

February 22, 2022 Garry Schleifer
choice Magazine
Beyond the Page ~ Jeb Bates - Practical Resilience: How to make resilience work for your clients
Show Notes Transcript

Jeb is an executive coach and leadership development consultant based in Cambridge, Massachusetts.  He is the Chief Experience Officer of ThoughtAction, a firm focused on bringing the unique, transformative Results System coaching process to clients and coaches. Jeb focuses on helping organization, teams, and individuals to create the results they desire professionally and personally.

In this episode, I talk with Jeb about his article published in our December 2021 issue titled “Practical Resilience: How to make resilience work for your clients.”

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Full article can be found here -https://bit.ly/BtP-JebBates

Thought Action - https://thoughtaction.com/

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm Gary Schleifer. And this is beyond the page, brought to you by choice the magazine of professional coaching, the ultimate resource for professional coaches in this wonderful arena of professional coaching. We're more than a magazine choice is a community for people who use coaching in their work or, and or their personal lives. We built our strong, passionate following in the coaching industry for more than 20 years. I can't even believe it. It's hard to believe. However, we did it in today's episode. I talk with speaker trainer, coach author, and a dear friend, Jonathan, or as I know him, Jeb Bates, uh, regarding his article in the recent issue of choice, entitled practical resilience, how to make resilience work for your clients. So we're gonna find out more about that first, a little bit more about him. Uh, as I said, I call a so I'm sure he'll let you call him Jeb too. Uh, he's an Ms. O D uh, I guess that's an organizational development. Uh, well, I know that it is, he's a PCC as MI with the international coaching Federation, uh, an executive coach and leadership development consultant based in Massachusetts. He's the chief experience officer of thought action, a firm focused on bringing the unique transformative results system coaching, which I do do, uh, process to the clients and coaches, Jeb focuses on helping organizations, teams, and individuals to create the results they desire professionally and personally. And I think I want to add that I've learned tons from jab, not only from his friendship, but also from the work that he does with the results system, the results accelerator. I'm a, what do I call jab a certified results accelerator,

Speaker 2:

Remote system certified practitioner,

Speaker 1:

Our, our not to be confused with an RCMP, but pretty close. Well, welcome Deb. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2:

I'm happy to be here with you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And I'm happy to be here with you too. Well, it's connected as we can be. Right. So, uh, um, first of all, I'd love to start off with what was the Genesis for this article? Why, why did you feel the need to write it?

Speaker 2:

So that's a great question here. And, you know, the, the dirty little secret is Gary says, Hey, I've got this resilient issue coming up. Might you want to contribute something? And I really reflected on it because resilience is, you know, such a buzzword these days or whatever. So I really thought about like, okay, what, what would I have to contribute? Right. Um, and I'm sure there's lots of other, you know, skilled coaches writing interesting stuff. So I try to think, how do I do it? How do I deal with resilience with my clients? And what I try to do is keep it really practical. Hence the idea of the, that this might be a, a way of looking at resilience that not every coach is using with their clients, but I found is really useful.

Speaker 1:

Well, you've land landed yourself right into my next question. What do you mean practical resilience? Like what is this distinction about being practical?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so that's a, that's a great question too. So my, my idea, or my thought about this is we talk about resilience, resilience, resilience. It's a sort of vague concept of something. Right. And how do you translate that into something that your client can actually do? Right. Everybody wants resilience, but what does that really mean? And, you know, I think we have a, a vision of resilience. That's sort of, how do I with this? Uh, it's a little cliche, like you think of like bouncing back for instance, right. Bounce back and being resilient. But I don't think that helps our clients to think about it that way. So, so really being practical stuff that the client can sort of see themselves doing and be able to actually go out and act upon it. Yeah. Um, and you, one example is even something as simple as the client thinking about bouncing back, is that really realistic for today's world here are, are things really gonna go back to the way they were pre pandemic, for instance, probably not. It's gonna be a different world, different kind of thing. So how does someone, you know, for lack of a better term, like bounce forward in, instead of envisioning that they're supposed to bounce back. And so yeah. What kinds of practical things can people do to be able to do

Speaker 1:

That? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you bring up a really good point where, you know, in this day and age, we're talking about the great resignation and a lot of people figured out that they don't wanna be resilient back to where they were. They want to be resilient back to something new. So, you know, that's an interesting concept as well, you know? Yes. In your article, there was an amazing, uh, diagram and reference to a resilience triangle and a three legged stool. So for those of us, or, well, not us for those that, that are on this call that, uh, may not remember it or haven't that didn't lodge in their brain. What, explain more about the three legged stool and the resilience triangle.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So in, in thinking about being practical, right. I was thinking like, okay, why do what makes people successful at sort of bringing resilience to work for them and what keeps people from doing that? And what I found in my work is that that sometimes people try certain things to be resilient and they don't work. It just doesn't seem to rectify the situation or bring them to a new place or make them feel better about things. And what I realized is because it's probably because you're doing, there's several different component, it's necessary to actually make resilience work and make it sustain itself for you. And so I think of it, like, it's the resilience triangle, as you said, like there's three different parts to it. One part is the mindset like what's going on in the person's head around resilience. And I can say more about that if you want to. The second part is usually resilience. The sort of implication of is that there's some kind of change that people are struggling with such that they need to be able to be flexible and move around, do something different, whatever it isn't and feel better. And so it takes energy to be able to do that. Right. You have to have some kind of inner resources and I don't know about you, but I see lots of clients out here are just burned out frazzled stress. They almost don't have the energy to take the actions necessary to be resilient and just sort of make things different and better for themselves. And then the third part is action. Right? Some people sort of get stuck and they, they think about stuff or they, um, they sort of fre about kind of how burnt out they are, but then they don't actually do something about, right. So not only do you have to kind of get your mind, lined up, get your energy in place to be able to be resilient, but you also have to take some kind of actions necessary to do it. And, and you can't really do, in my opinion, you can't do two outta three. You have to really do all three parts to make it work sustainably. And, you know, I just called it the resilience triangle, because I think that's a, a really good way to think about it. You need, you know, a stool with only two legs is not gonna stand. Right. But the two-legged stool can be really solid. It's a solid approach to be able to help people, uh, make it through and, and make resilience work for them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And practical, there goes that word

Speaker 2:

Again. You can actually understand and do. Right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And the diagram is very understandable. The concept is very understandable. So thank you for explaining it further. Now, how does that relate to the emphasis that you put on perceptions, beliefs, expectations, and assumptions.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So in a lot of the work that we do using, you know, the neuroscience of things, a lot of the stuff the goes through people's heads that either help them or get in their way pertain to their perceptions of things, sort of how they look at things, what they see and what they don't see their beliefs about, what they think is true in a situation, their expectations, which are really predictions of the future and assumptions, which are the connections or associations they make between they, which may be true or not. And, you know, the area of resilience is sort of rife with these kinds of things. Uh, I'll give you one example here. So if you think about expectations, right, we all have expectations of things. Expectations are just predictions in our minds about something that we anticipate is gonna happen in the future. And so with resilience, a lot of people have the expectation, oh, it'll get better when X happens or, oh, uh, my vision of what my new state can be, looks a whole lot, like the way it did before. And I'm expecting that that's what's gonna happen. And then I'm disappointed when that doesn't seem to go that way. And that just adds stress or that takes away my energy or whatever it is. So even just as simple as understanding what the client is expecting, they will get after they have this, whatever resilience, miracle is really helpful to the client, because then they can know what they're gonna focus upon to try to get to. And you know, what we know from the neurosciences, what you focus on is where you align your mind to go. And so if their expectations aren't realistic, it's probably means that they're not gonna get to where they really want to get to with the resilience.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Wow. Well said, and you know, I'm, I'm a big believer that an unfulfilled expect leads to upset and an unfulfilled possibility is just another possibility. So this is your way of saying, oh, let's lighten the expectation maybe. And let's, is that possible? Is it realistic? You know, almost goes to some goal conversations. And what I really love about all of this too. Sorry, Jeb. What I also love about all this is how you, uh, masterfully tied it into your work with the, with the results system. Um, I know I'm a student of it as well. So, you know, self, um, a shameless self-promotion for you. Um, it's like really resonates for me knowing, uh, the work that we've done together and that I do with my clients, with the results accelerator.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Great. And the point I was gonna make with that too, is that, you know, this idea of, you know, we're all familiar with this metaphor of an iceberg, right? There's stuff that's visible at the top. And there's a whole lot of bunch of stuff on the surface. Like some of these things and these thoughts that we've been talking about here, uh, that are impacting how we do things unconsciously. Right? And so the more that we can help the clients see these things kinda kinda shine light on them, uh, the more than then they have choice about it. You know, it, one of the things I think that also happens with resilience is, is the area of assumptions. What are the assumptions people are making about either the present situation or what the future situation might be or what they might need to do about it. Right. And you start to hear people saying things like, you know, um, well, when, you know, when we get to the other side of this, then this is gonna be better. That's really an assumption they're making. And it's association between these two concepts, right. That the what's gonna happen in the future and things aren't gonna really get better until then, right. Is what the assumption that they're making here. Yeah. People have these automatic thoughts all the time that until you tease him apart and say, well, is that really true? Is that the only circumstance that can happen then, or, uh, you know, is that the only way that you're going to get to something that's gonna be positive for yourself? If you unpack these things was with your client, then they start to have choice. Then they realize, oh, I'm not just gonna charge forward with some automatic thought that has been banging around in my head, but yet it's gonna keep me from getting to what I want. Um, and so these assumptions that we're making all the time, you know, are, are driving away, our clients make decisions and look at their choices. Yeah. And no wonder sometimes people struggle getting what they really want.

Speaker 1:

Well, you know, what really hit me right now is, um, a conversation I had with another author about confirmation bias. And also again, to your training, uh, what resonates in my head right now, pork chops and apple sauce. You know, we have these assumptions are, are in what you're, how you're describing are these collapsed ideas. Like they're joined together, like peanut butter and jam is the only thing to have on bread. You know what I mean? That same sort of thing. And what you're all you're saying is, you know, um, well what's, what do they say about assumptions? Um, question the assumptions, there's a saying about right question, all assumptions, are they really true? Um, you know, are you, are you biased on it? You know, that kind of thing. So are these

Speaker 2:

The only possibilities for the outcome, right? You, you raise this idea of sort of peanut butter and jam, right. But no matter what culture you're in, if you think about a favorite perhaps holiday in your culture, right. And you think about what are the foods, for instance, that often go along with that, and you, there's probably a certain number of dishes that are often put together and you have them, and that's what makes the holiday so fun. And then you imagine having something different at that, like, you know, bringing in the us pizza of Thanksgiving dinners, not really normal people going, oh, no way, right. This and that. We make those kind of assumptions all the time about things, about how things have to be. Yeah. And if we start to realize what those are, then we have much more flexibility going forward because we can look at more possibilities, like, you know, pizza, you know, pizza for a Thanksgiving dinner might be the best thing. If you have a family that's quite busy and you don't have the ability to traditional fair or whatever that might be. Right. It it's. But, but these are just these almost automatic thoughts that we have. Yeah. Actually keep driving us down the path of the old way, like before the, before lands, right? Yeah. Um, which is the sort of antithesis of being resilient, right? It's yeah. Resilience is about going into a new situation and handling it new and we're pulled back by all these old assumptions. It's unlikely we're gonna actually get anywhere that's satisfactory for us.

Speaker 1:

Well, and if you tie this all back to practical resilience, what I'm hearing is that, you know, if you, if you question assumptions, you manage expectations, you search for possibility, you could create something entirely different. Um, for yourself, I've, I've noticed that with clients already they're and we talked about this too, the great resignation, and it's like, COVID gave the pandemic, gave people the opportunity to, to take a look at the quality of their lives, where they're spending time, all this sort of thing. So that was a forced, you know, check and a forced opportunity to go through this exercise. And I just love how you tie it all to, to resiliency because there's, you know, it's, it's an opportunity to be, like we said earlier, resilient in a different direction. Right? Like maybe resiliency is just another, a code word for a change, the result of a change. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Um, one of my favorite topics or core needs, and I know we do this in there and you bring this up as well. What's a core need and what's the difference between that and a core value and coaches love value. So let's, I know exactly. Let's, let's hear this one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And we're often we often talk a lot about value. So, you know, to your point here, this plugs into that part of the triangle. I was talking about, about energy that we all have a set of core needs. Right. And I would define a core as an experience that we need to have periodically, you know, from time to time that gives us positive energy. Right. And we each have a set of these that, you know, might be, I don't know, maybe eight to 20 of these, you know, things like, uh, achievement or acknowledgement or, um, you know, uh, making a difference or, uh, you know, being a still and quiet or, um, you know, being connected or collaborating or whatever. So we have a whole series of these core needs that make us up. We each have our own kind of unique combination of these and they give us energy, right? When our core needs are being met, we feel great. We thrive, we feel awesome. We've got the energy here. A great example of what's happened last year and a half. Is that the typical way that people have gotten their core needs met, like a great example, would be collaborating in person with clients or meeting with family members in person for someone who needs that sense of collaboration and connection. It's been a, it's been really a hard thing, right? They haven't been able to get those core needs met. Right? Think of,'em almost like they're the gas tanks that power you around. Right. And so in order to be resilient, if you've got your gas tanks all drained down to nothing, how are you gonna have the energy to really do something different that might be quite different to take the risk and try a new possibility here or put more, you know, put more effort into something that, you know, you think will help you going forward. Right. Other than the way things have been. And even just in the midst of having chaos going on, which many people have in their work and, and in their, in their home lives here, how do you just have, make have enough energy just to make a little space to do something that's gonna be positive for you? Like maybe meditate or relax or whatever it is. It it's an act of will to make that change sometimes. So having the energy to do it is key. And, you know, back to your original question, you know, sometimes people ask about like, well, are, are, are we talking about values here? And what I would suggest is that values are the principles by which we want to live. So we might value honesty or integrity

Speaker 1:

Fity generosity.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. But we also might value collabo, right. That you may feel that that's teamwork, right. So it's the principles by which we live. I would think of the core needs to make a distinction here as kind of the way that we live those out. So I might have a core need for, you know, collaborating in small groups with, with people that I really trust and work with. Right. So my value might be team work, but the way I like it done is in sort of small focus groups with people that I feel like I can partner with and trust that are creative or whatever, it's, that's my own flavor of it, if you will. Right. Um, same thing with integrity. We might value integrity for some people that might mean sort of being honest and, and, uh, upfront with people about what you're doing and what you're going to do for other people that might be, um, uh, just delivering on what you said you were gonna do, which is two really different things, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Very, it's your own flavor of it, the way that you need that met in a way that you positive energy. Because if, um, if I like to collaborate with small groups of people and I never get the chance to cuz we're always in these 50 person meetings, I, it's not even not only gonna not add to my energy, it's gonna drain my energy. Right? So knowing what your own core needs are, is how you can be intentional about making sure that you have enough energy to be able to go in different directions and be resilient. You know, and many of us, many coaches, you know, there's questions, you can ask the client, I put some in the article here, you can ask the client to kind of discern what some of their core needs are or, you know, we do, like, as you said, we do training to teach people how to use them effectively. But you know, understanding what your client its coordinates are, can help them be intentional about having that energy to not only be resilient, but get a, have a fulfilling, satisfying, engaging life and work that they want.

Speaker 1:

Well, and if, if the pandemic has taught us anything, it's the opportunity to look at. What's really important and how, how we were doing those things and getting those needs met. Like you said, you know, um, for example, on a personal note, um, familial connection, like my mom is a widow and lives on her own. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to go see her physically. So we taught her how to access zoom. And we met meet with her every day, 10:30 AM east during standard time. No, not everyone's welcome just family. Um, and, and we have that connection. So we created it another way. And even she's starting to realize that her core need for sociability is now being met by other opportunities are now opening up again from, uh, post post pandemic, like post lockdown. So now she's like, well, you know, I don't need you kids to hold my hand every day. Like, yeah, what about me? I'm starting to like this thing every day. So I, I may have this new corny that I didn't realize that my mom helped me. So my sister and I joined that call. So there's, there's a core right there. Like I know my mom, she doesn't know what it means, the impact on her when she's been sociable and with other people, but we can tell she eats better. She's more, you know, engaging less depressed and things like that. Cuz she lives by yourself in a, you know, two bedroom apartment. So, you know, sometimes you can see that corn needs for other people better than you can see your own,

Speaker 2:

But absolutely well, and you raise a really good point here, which is being intentional about doing other kinds of things than the one that you're used to. Uh, I'll give you an example, like, you know, for during the, particularly in the intense part of the pandemic where people were not able to get together socially with friends, I had one client who, you know, was really, it was really bringing him down because he was used to socializing with groups of friends and hanging out and doing all this stuff. And he was home alone with, you know, not really able to do things. And so when we talked about what he, what, what that experience of being with people, gives him what he came down to, what he boiled it down to was, uh, being able to use the gifts that I have to give other people enjoyment. Like for him being together with people, he gets to be himself. He gets to retain, he get, he like gifts, his gifts to other, to make them happy. And here he is a lot own in his apartment in Germany, not being in lockdown, not being able to do any of that stuff. What he realized was that he gets that same feeling of joy as he does with other people when he's playing the piano and letting someone else enjoy it with him. And he found he could start connecting these groups of friends on zoom and playing. And even though they weren't physically together, he was getting that same energy out of it. So sometimes being creative about the situation or, or boiling down to what's really the need that this fulfills can give you flexibility to find ways to make it work. Even when the general circumstances don't line up for it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That I'll tell you that pandemic really can fit some real wild, wild creations out there on how to do things when to do things and, you know, thank goodness for things like zoom that we're on right now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And just I'll make an observation. You mentioned the, the big, uh, the big re great resignation, right? Yeah. A lot of people are jumping jobs here it's because they got so burnt out. Given the, the rigors of what's happened with the pandemic. What I've noticed is there's a lot of people jumping jobs for the wrong reasons and what they're not, they're, they're jumping the job because they just can't stand being there anymore. And whatever that new thing is, looks like a shiny object. What I'm inviting people to do is think about what your core needs are and make a choice to go to a place that actually more as make any of your core needs is possibly gonna get met. Not just because you're out of this frying pan and perhaps going into the fire. Right? So using your core needs is a way to make some of those decisions. Yourself is gonna create a much more satisfying, fulfilling, uh, and engaging, you know, experience.

Speaker 1:

I just made a huge connection between a conversation I have with clients and what you just said about core needs. I called it conditions of satisfaction. What do you really need to get out of it out of a job or relationship or whatever. But in essence it really is core needs.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. What's interesting too, is that sometimes when we have this core needs conversation, the client realizes that actually staying in their current job and maybe negotiating some different things now that they know what they really need. There's more possibilities that maybe they don't have to leave or don't have to leave yet and could be much more discerning about what they go to, can fill up their gas tanks a little bit, even in the current situation, either temporarily or, or permanently for themselves. It's gives you more flexibility, just it's about giving you more possibilities and choice.

Speaker 1:

Really. Yeah. Wow. You know, we talked a lot about the, about resilience and reacting creativity. What's your advice to coaches about action planning for resilience? Can you plan for resilience?

Speaker 2:

Well, here's, here's my thought, Gary is, you know, if you, if you get your mindset kind of lined up to be open and you have at least enough energy in your tanks to be able to move forward and do some things, then you don't have to do a lot of really big actions. You can do even small actions. I mean, something as simple as, you know, learning how to reframe your negative thinking in a moment when you're stressed or pushed by something, gives you more resilience in that moment, it gives you many more choices or just pausing and reflecting before reacting a very small thing that someone can do can go a really long way to helping them sustain themselves. Cells feel good about themselves and so forth. Um, you know, some people turn into meditation or yoga or other kinds of activities. Um, some people need some kind of active, energizing, maybe it's exercise that helps them, or it might be just spending some dedicated time that they set aside for themselves to work on something that's really important to them to carve out in the midst of, of all the chaos. I'm gonna spend 30 minutes today on this. That's gonna be rejuvenating for me and that's gonna let me deal with the other 23 hours, uh, that we have going on. So choosing, choosing actions, even small ones that are intentional can actually help the client, you know, start to move out of that state of being resilient and stuck into one where, Hey, okay, I can make this at least work enough for myself until things get better for me. And then, uh, perhaps I can arm myself or prepare myself for this whole new world that I'm trying to get for.

Speaker 1:

Well, and if you go back to what I said earlier, resilience is just another word for change. Just it be happens to be the buzzword. You're preparing yourself for change. How, how flexible are you? How prepared are you? So action planning is being prepared for changes. And like you said, what are your core needs? So it's a, it can be an, an opportunity to have some core needs met art or to ask for some and you know, like your example. Yeah. That's great.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I, you, one of the things that people often think about getting their needs better taking actions is you gotta do this big thing, right?

Speaker 1:

The grand gesture. Yes.

Speaker 2:

The way the way to think about it is, you know, you get in your car, you, uh, you know, you turn it on, you realize, oh my gosh, I'm out and around here, I don't have enough gas to get home. Right. And so you're like, okay, I need to stop and get some gas and you realize, oh my God, I left my wallet. Like, what am I gonna do? Right. In that situation, you know, crazy. So you go into the console and you start looking around for change and you come up with like, you know, uh, you know, enough for, you know, a couple of gallons or a couple of liters of fuel. Right. And you pull into the, into the gas station, you put that in and you get home, right. You don't have to fill your tank and you don't have to go a hundred miles. Right. But just putting a little bit of gas Peck in that tank is gonna help you get through to the next thing. Right. And so when you think about these actions, it doesn't have to be grandiose things. You can just put, you know, a couple of dollars worth of gas into yeah. Into your gas tank and you get to tomorrow or you get to the end of the week.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That's great. Thank you. Um, a couple more questions. This has been awesome. Um, we always like to ask, what else would you like our audience to take away from this article and this conversation, perhaps an action item, a piece of wisdom, a thought, something that didn't make it in the article.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I think, you know, so often we as coaches, we learn a bunch of really great skills. You know, being able to, to ask really, you know, good questions and to help the clients sort of come up with actions and, and items and so forth to really understand. And we don't necessarily have a way to focus that sometimes. And my invitation is to think about this idea of this triangle. You can use your coaching skills to help them realize what their mindset is and shift their mindset to reframe the, the thinking they've got in a direction that's gonna help them get there. Right. We can help them figure out what their core needs are and be able to then be much more intentional about being able to, to meet them right. And come up with ideas for it. And sometimes you need a, a, a, a brain outside yourself to see what you're not being about yourself, right. Or what the possibilities might be. So, uh, you know, a great example with the core needs is that sometimes people are so tunnel vision about the way that they've gotten and met in the past. They can't think of new possibilities and all they need is you as the coach to say, well, what about this? Or what about this? Or what about this? How would you react to that? And suddenly they get the like, oh my gosh, I could do. And so we serve that purpose to use our coaching skills, to help them open up these possibilities. And then certainly helping the client get really clear on doing something about this, whatever small or large actions they're gonna do and help them move towards that resolution and taking action. So that they're doing all three of these pieces. I, I think, I think that's what we can give to our clients as a gift. Yeah. Is to use our skills, to help them put these three legs of the stool in place and therefore be able to handle what everything. And, and it's a, it's a skill that they learn that whatever the next thing that comes along is they'll be able to use this same set of skills to be able to deal with that in the future.

Speaker 1:

Oh, please. Not so severe next time. That's all I have. That's all I ask. Oh, Jeb. Thank you so much for joining us for this beyond the page episode, it's been informative as all my conversations are with you and fun, um, for our audience, what's the best way to reach you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Uh, they can, they can, uh, go to my website, thought action, WW thought action.com. You can also learn about core needs and everything there, if you want to, uh, or certainly, uh, you'll you can, you can contact me there and I'll be happy to talk to you or explain more about what we're doing. I'd love to talk to people. So

Speaker 1:

Yes, you do.

Speaker 2:

Please reach out. I'm happy to do that.

Speaker 1:

Yes. And, uh, take a full advantage of what, uh, Jeb has to offer. He has, uh, regular sessions on core deeds and the tools that he provides. And he's definitely got a core value of generosity. I have to say that a big heart and, uh, and very generous. So thanks, Jeb. That's it for this episode of beyond the page, um, please line up to our email list@choiceonline.com uh, to find previous episodes or subscribe to your favorite podcast app. So you don't miss any of our informative episodes. If you're interested in getting a free digital issue of choice magazine and on over to choice online.com, click the sign up now button I'm Gary Schleifer, enjoy the journey to mastery.