choice Magazine

Beyond the Page ~ S.T.E.M vs. S.T.E.A.M.

July 04, 2023 Garry Schleifer
choice Magazine
Beyond the Page ~ S.T.E.M vs. S.T.E.A.M.
Show Notes Transcript

In today’s episode, I’m speaking with writing coach, Sandra Hill, who is the author of an article in our latest issue “Technology & AI ~ Will it support or replace human coaching?" Her article is entitled:  S.T.E.M. vs. S.T.E.A.M. ~The advantages of being Simply Human.

Today, the rise of chatbots and electronic assistants like Siri, Alexa, Cortana and many others have paved the way for a wealth of meditation or health and wellness apps.

As a human species, it seems as though we initially dipped our toes in, and now, we have become fully immersed in the tech world. But not without some pain points that have the potential to wreak havoc to our lives, both personal and professional.

For coaches, regardless of their niche, there is a lot to take in. Like anything, too much of a good thing can cause problems. And, in the wrong hands or used in the wrong way, technology can be our downfall (hence the Pandora’s Box analogy).

In this podcast, we will discuss how safeguards could be applied when using AI and how AI-based virtual coaches will be able to automate mundane tasks for coaches.

Sandra Hill has a passion for coaching, helping those who seek to build their confidence while facilitating transitions in their personal or professional life. She uses a proven framework that enables her to help prepare tomorrow’s workforce combining her knowledge and change management expertise with that of coaching.  As a career coach, Sandra has a 98% success rate when working with aspiring leaders and executives. During the pandemic, Sandra marketed herself as a writing coach.

A best-selling author herself, Sandra also hosts the podcast GROW YOUR VOICE/OVERCOME YOUR FEARS and writes career coaching articles for Forbes and life coaching articles for other industry magazines.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here: https://bit.ly/bta-SandraHill

Learn more about Sandra here.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

In this episode, I talk with Sandra about her article published in our June 2023 issue. 

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the choice Magazine podcast Beyond the Page. Sorry, but I always have so much fun before we get started, and we should just record right from the very beginning. I am Garry Schleifer , your host. I'm thrilled to have you join us today. choice the magazine of professional coaching is your go-to source for expert insights and in-depth features from the world of professional coaching. In each episode, we go beyond the page. Always sounds like the Twilight Zone.

Speaker 2:

Scifi. Yeah.

:

Exactly. And dive deeper into some of the most recent and relevant topics impacting the world of professional coaching, exploring the content, interviewing these talented minds, like Sandra's, behind these articles, and uncovering the stories that make an impact. choice is more than just a magazine. For over 20 years, well, it's actually into the 21st now, we have built a community. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Thank you. Built a community of like-minded people who create, use and share coaching tools, tips, and techniques to add value to their businesses, and of course, impact their clients, number one. In today's episode, I'm speaking again with writing coach, Sandra Hill , who's the author of an article in our latest issue, Technology and AI ~ Will it support or replace Human Coaching? The article is entitled S.T.E.M. vs. S.T.E.A.M. - The advantages of being Simply Human.

Speaker 1:

There's way more to say about just being human. Sandra has a passion for coaching, helping those who seek to build their confidence while facilitating transitions in their personal and or professional life. She uses a proven framework that enables her to help prepare tomorrow's workforce, combining her knowledge and I'm guessing expertise with that of coaching. As a career coach, Sandra has a 98% success rate when working with aspiring leaders and executives. During the pandemic. Sandra marketed herself as a writing coach, and of course, being here again, it's obviously working. She's self coaching. A bestselling author herself, Sandra also hosts the podcast, Grow Your Voice, Overcome Your Fears, and writes career coaching articles for Forbes and life coaching articles for other industry magazines and for choice. Thank you for joining me again, Sandra. It's a pleasure as always.

Speaker 2:

Well , thank you for having me. Love it.

Speaker 1:

I'm thrilled. You're a great guest. I love talking with you. And I really loved your articles. So I think we should tell them about S.T.E.M. versus S.T.E.A.M. before we get started. So you want to explain that to our listeners?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, technology, you gotta love it. You gotta hate it. And when I saw that I had an opportunity to voice my opinion, I was thinking, Hmm . Are people really going to listen? And it wasn't until a peer coach of mine said, Sandra, I'm going to use the chat bots for everything. I'm not gonna write another personal email. I'm not gonna do another personal post, yada , yada, yada . And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. We can't go down this rabbit hole . We can't. I have got to put my thoughts on paper whether people agree or not. So I thought technology, and you know, what came to mind was the movie iRobot. I don't know if you saw it.

Speaker 1:

Will Smith. Yeah .

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. And the robots took over. That became the nightmare in the back of my head and there was this one robot though, that had human qualities, and I thought, that's it. When it comes to AI, AI can be a good thing, but it can possibly not be a good thing because of what's missing. The human qualities, the human interaction. So let me go back to the title. S.T.E.M., as you appropriately said, S.T.E.M. Technology, it's all about mathematics. It's all about engineering, science, technology. That's the acronym for S.T.E.M. I said it backwards.

Speaker 1:

Science, technology,

Speaker 2:

Engineering.

Speaker 1:

And ath.

:

Mathematics. Mathematics. That is S.T.E.M. I used to do computer science work, and at one time I wanted to be a computer programmer back in the day when they had the key cards and everything. That's what I think of 0 1, 0 1, da , da , da .

Speaker 1:

That's where I went . And , or , and or.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Exactly. That's the robot. The robot is only as good, the technology is only as good as those that program it. Now, on the flip side, you have people, that human interaction, the steam, that's what drives us. Whereas steam, we have those soft skills. We smile, we laugh, we listen, we're empathetic. We have those soft skills that you can't program. We think outside the box. That's what that "T" stands for. We think outside the box, we do the what ifs. You don't have to give us some form. We think what if. We're creative , we have energy, we have empathy. We're adaptable or flexible. You know, if something doesn't work right, we'll go the other way. As we listen and follow as we're coaching, we should be following the client in their coaching conversation. And we're motivated. We're motivated to do our best. We're competitive, but we're motivated. And when I think of technology and coaching, my thought process was to my friend and I actually said this, I don't think I would do that . Because look at the history of how things happen in human society. We go all out and then we have to reel things in, put in rules, regulations, and then some bad person takes it and boom, something happens. Same thing can happen with AI. It can be good, but if overused, it can create problems. If you are my client, you think you're communicating with me and then there's some flub, because the chaat bot starts repeating itself, or putting you in a vicious loop.

Speaker 1:

Or hallucinating, apparently. I've heard of that too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Mixing things up, you're going to be like, Ooh , I don't want to work with her . That messes up your brand. That messes up the reviews that you might get. That messes up referrals. People will say, oh, don't work with her. This, and this happened to me. She didn't respond to me. I got this weird message. You know, you start having technology, write your emails. Who knows what.

Speaker 1:

Oh , to be honest, I think technology could do better writing my emails than I do to be.

Speaker 2:

I mean, everybody's different and you know, Garry, it's all good. You can use technology. Like we have an app for everything. We have an app to help people who can't write. They dictate and it writes out what they say. But a person has to go behind and spell check because you've got those words like two and too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . Two , to and too.

Speaker 2:

And then if your dialect is off. I'll never forget watching my husband. He was dialing somebody to get some assistance for some problem. He had put in an order and it didn't take or double charged him. Something like that. He's from the south. He has a southern drawl. And the chatbot could not understand a word he was saying and kept sending them to some other, you know, talk to this person, or here's what you need to do. And he got frustrated and hung up. Problem was not solved. And I said, I don't have much of a dialect, I don't think, let me help you.

Speaker 1:

I don't think you do.

Speaker 2:

Well, I got through, helped him, but he was not happy.

Speaker 1:

I helped him, but it was like, one call should do it all. I should dial this and get the help I need. He said, I am so tired to talking to a computer.

Speaker 2:

So all of this was around the time that I was putting together my response. I actually interviewed a couple of people in the technology field to get their opinion of AI and I learned everybody doesn't think of AI as the same. AI means something different to a person in the technology field than from person like you, a person like me, even a person like my husband, because he worked in technology, but he was on the database side. Another person has a different interest in technology and understanding because they're in security. Technology is huge. Therefore, I thought we are opening Pandora's box and I referenced that in the article.

Speaker 1:

You did.

Speaker 2:

Without those safeguards, things can go haywire. What is it that saying too much of a good thing is a bad thing? I don't know. But you get picture .

Speaker 1:

Something like that . Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. You get the picture.

Speaker 1:

Well, I want to stop you and reel back a bit because I don't think we spelled out S.T.E.A.M.

Speaker 2:

Oh, okay. All right . So in my mind, I was thinking I was going there, but that's okay .

Speaker 1:

I t's s till in my mind so I think our listeners might want to be reminded.

:

That's good. Good. Because if you didn't get it, then probably the listeners and viewers didn't. So "S" the soft skills, those people skills that we possess. "T" thinking outside of the box. "E" is that energy and empathy that people have. AI doesn't have it. You can't program that. "A" adaptability. People are flexible. Some people might use the word wishy-washy. I like to be positive.

Speaker 1:

They're adaptable. "M", motivated. They're motivated to succeed, they're motivated to their client's success. S.T.E.A.M.

:

Very much so. And I noticed how the S.T.E.M. is very scientific sounding which in a sense it has to be when you break it all down, like you said, it's and or one zero , blah, blah, blah. Then S.T.E.A.M., it sounds so much more , I want to say pliable, but agile, flexible and things like that. But saying that, you know, if you had a crystal ball, where do you think AI would be in 10 years from now? Would it be more S.T.E.A.M.? How much S.T.E.A.M. can an AI ever have?

Speaker 2:

That sounds like a riddle.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I know. But we don't know what we don't know yet.

Speaker 2:

We don't, we don't, we don't. If I had that crystal ball, I'd have to look to see where people are 10 years from now. All right . That's gonna be another generation. I look at my grandson who can work a remote like there's no tomorrow.

Speaker 1:

Can you send him over here? We just got on a new on a new carrier and can't get the soundbar to work to save our lives .

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I know what you mean. My grandson is now seven. Garry, when he was five years old, we got a new phone system for my mom. The landline, big keys, blah, blah , blah . We're reading the instructions so I can help my mom. My grandson just went doo doo doo. Really? He couldn't read but he has that ability. So as each generation comes along, they're going to have a greater and greater ability. I say there's an app for that. We used to not even know what apps were 10 years ago.

Speaker 1:

So in 10 years, there's probably going to be some other new word for the new technology, and people are going to be so used to it. I'm sure there are going to be safeguards in place, but I'm hoping the safeguards that are in place allow AI to help mankind. For example , we have a lot of scientists doing research to cure all that ails people. The cancers, the COVID's, the different variations of the flu, blah, blah, blah. Hopefully AI can fast forward that along and help that. In the coaching realm. I'm hoping the AI can facilitate improved customer service. I write in the article about taking some of the mundane stuff and automating it. There's nothing wrong with that but perfecting the automation so that people don't get in these loops. Like your husband did and it's more understanding and more intuitive.

Speaker 2:

Pick up the tonations of the individuals and say, I am sorry you're having a rough day. You can program key phrases and program, hopefully by then picking up tonality, dialects, that sort of thing. Also facilitate, the best way I can say this is, gender neutral apps. Gender neutral and apps for those who are physically challenged or have some kind of disability.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

You know, taking it to the next level. There are some people who suffer from, let's take example, PSTD. They would benefit from a virtual type of conversation. Everybody doesn't like Zoom, everybody doesn't like Google Meets and Teams and all of that kind of stuff. Hopefully by then, there'll be some easier contraption or app to facilitate all of that and take out all of the filters so that somebody who is physically challenged or visually impaired won't be impacted as much by the technology we have today. Those individuals who can't speak have a way of voicing their issues rather than manually typing it out or having a filter. Those individuals who, for one reason or another, identify in a different gender can have a gender matching app.

Speaker 1:

Oh, truly avatars and virtual reality. What comes to mind when you're talking about this is an improved, I don't e ven want to say improved, but an impact on the DEI space.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

When you say gender neutral, tonality, disabilities and making it equitable. Pretty much everybody on the planet has a cell phone , not necessarily a smartphone, but a cell phone . I mean, your mom has a landline. I don't know if she has a smartphone or not.

Speaker 2:

She has a cell phone she only uses for her emergencies .

Speaker 1:

My mom used to do that.

:

She knows how to turn it on.

Speaker 1:

There we go. I got my mom on a smartphone, but Yeah . I can't help but think to your point about , um, you know, yes, AI has come out like full force steam, full steam ahead. I mean, even as we speak, our articles that are at the printer in this issue are outdated. If only because AI has evolved how many times, four times or so last week, since the number of last year. So it continues to evolve. And it's self-adjusting.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's self-adjusting. I don't know the correct term, but basically it's self-adjusting. It keeps adapting. It's doing some kind of adaptation, modifying itself. It's like a genetic mutation. In a good way. Really, in a good way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . And then to your point about apps, one thing I would add into not just regulation, but standardization.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That would be awesome.

Speaker 1:

As soon as it's required. I was just reading an article about electric charging stations in North America and how there are three different charging types. So do three different plugs. It's like, you know, when you go to Europe, you got different set of plugs and different power. North America has three. Well, GM and Ford have agreed to standardize themselves to the one that Tesla originally started.

Speaker 2:

Really? I had not heard that yet.

Speaker 1:

It won't be until 2025 or 26 until it all filters and replacements and all this sort of stuff. Standardization is one thing. There's the other thing that you said that I also want your opinion on because you said garbage in , garbage out. But I still believe that you need to filter what comes out .

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. You are exactly right. You do need to filter. I'm sure by 10 years they'll have developed various filters. It's an improvement process and humans, we only can think out the box so far , but I see with AI, all of these extrapolations, what comes to mind, my husband's a Trekkie, and I'll never forget how they do these three, four five D-maps, and they're moving things around on this visible board, I see stuff like going and boom, they hit this filter and boom, they hit this filter and it's invisible to the user. It's just automatic, you know? Something happens and you get the best possible product, the best possible variations. So I see that happening in 10 years. In fact , probably in two, three years, all of these chat bot things, chat bot apps, whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 1:

ChatGPT, whatever,

Speaker 2:

Will be passe.

Speaker 1:

Well, you know, Sandra, it's interesting because we're talking about all this AI and chatbots and things like this, and I'm like, we've been dealing with these things for years.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

It's how you apply them properly. Like your husband having a difficulty because the accent wasn't understood. But I find myself in loops on a chat screen. Like when you're chatting on something and they're like, no, that's not what I want but it won't let me tell it what it wants. So I'm looking forward that those systems are improved with the advancement of this, I'd say, latest iteration of AI. Because like you, when I was preparing for this whole issue, I spoke with a friend of mine who was a computer science professor at the University of Calgary and he said to me, AI, well that's been around since the late seventies.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. A variation. Y eah. Right.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. And again, to your point, what does it mean to different people? For this conversation, let's keep it in the coaching realm. ICF has got a group together to look at how AI fits into it and I think it's, it behooves us. There's an old word we can use and the young ones won't know. It behooves us to not pay attention to AI. It's like, no, I don't want to know. And like you mentioned in your article, see what it can do. See how it can help your business. And to your example you gave about your coaching, you are not going to replace yourself. But what if all those repetitive transactions, which by the way have been handled by other systems for a long time, could be a lot better and AI will give it that opportunity. So why not keep Pandora's box shut with the AI doing what we think it should do. In the end, we're still humans in charge. We're still in charge of it.

Speaker 2:

We are, we are, we are. But you know what, to your point , Garry, it would not surprise me if ICF and others who are teaching according to the ICF competencies modify the competencies.

Speaker 1:

Oh , give me an example of what you're thinking.

Speaker 2:

So we have rules and regulations about ethics.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

About how we communicate, connect with the clients and I think there would be adjustments possibly made in at least those two arenas as far as how we connect. For example, if AI was used, not necessarily to cold call, but to do the discovery call conversations.

Speaker 1:

That would be interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Think how that it's not much different from when you are , to use your example, when you are using a chat box on screen and they say something like, my name is Andrea. What is your problem? Soften that a little. My name is Andrea. I am chat b ox model d a d a d a da.

Speaker 1:

No, it sounds cute.

Speaker 2:

I am programming at your disposal if you have a problem about the following.

:

Which of these is most applicable to you? Or something like, my name is Andrea. How are you doing today? Have that conversation going before you even do that deep dive. Because it's programmed in and have things like Andrea say, I am sorry to hear that you are having a problem. Let me see if I can fix that for you. Or, I am sorry to hear that you're having a problem, but I will try to facilitate a discovery conversation and connect you to a coach of such and such expertise, or give you a list to choose from. You know, something like that. Or at the end of this conversation, we can connect. I will go ahead and schedule your first appointment and send you an invoice. All that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1:

I know. Super Simple

Speaker 2:

And then put it in the notes for the coach.

Speaker 1:

And transcribe it all in the meantime.

Speaker 2:

All of that stuff.

Speaker 1:

It would be so much fun to have a client agree to have a discovery call where it's voice activated, but perhaps like this, where there's my avatar saying this is just a fact gathering session. Really want to get to know more about you so just speak your mind to the following questions.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

It's up to the coach to then read that document, listen to that recording, and get ready for the first call.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And to your point too, it would also help define if it was out just to the universe to say, I'm looking for a coach and then do a discovery call. And then, to your point, would say let me find an appropriate coach for you and it brings up three or four.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. And ask you what you want. What's your price range, location, blah, blah, blah. But also, think on this Garry, the charging stations. When they first came out with EVs, it was like nobody knew where the charging stations were. You had the time.

Speaker 1:

There's an app for that.

Speaker 2:

Yes. There's an app for that now. Exactly. But as time has progressed, there are more and more stations being built. The other day, there were none down the street. Now I have 20. I don't have an EV vehicle, so I don't know what kind of plugs they use or whatever, but they're down the street. They're going to be as common as gas stations.

Speaker 1:

Of course. In fact, gas stations should start having charging stations.

Speaker 2:

They should, they should. Another discussion. But take this. AR, I envision everybody owning one of those virtual headsets.

Speaker 1:

Oh, VR.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, VR. I said AR, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1:

I got it. I'm flowing with you.

Speaker 2:

VR. I am only human. But VR and everybody will have one and they're not going to be that expensive. Everybody will have one. And instead of using the phone or their cell phone, that VR click a button.

Speaker 1:

Artificial reality.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. This is your personal assistant, Andrea, how may I help you today?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly. Or those other things you were saying. I'm noticing your blood pressure's a little low or your sugar level or whatever. Things like that. Everything okay? Might I suggest you drink a glass of water.

Speaker 2:

Right, right, right.

Speaker 1:

It seems very beneficial.

Speaker 2:

We have Alexis and all these other things that talk. If you combine all of that, that's what you get.

Speaker 1:

Like you said, they're already here. It's all here. So what is it we're, and I guess I'm putting it out there by saying it, but what is it that we as coaches are afraid of?

Speaker 2:

I think we're afraid of it doing better than we do. Taking over our job.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so then the next question is, can computers ever be that human?

Speaker 2:

I don't think so.

Speaker 1:

So then we have nothing to worry about.

Speaker 2:

But then I'm scared of the iRobot that one robot that has that flaw and is more human than the rest of them .

Speaker 1:

Okay. But we will be long gone by then, honey.

Speaker 2:

Well.

Speaker 1:

It'll be your grandson's problem.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It might be , it might be.

Speaker 1:

Well though , you and I both have longevity in our family, so we may be around for that. They may be taking care of us.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they could. They could. And you know what? I think, because we are so competitive as humans and we're so motivated for success, that we're afraid that AI is going to be more successful, take our accolades, take our clients. Our clients are gonna work directly with the AI technology and we won't have clients. There won't be any use for us. You hear people say all the time, my job has been taken away or taken over by a robot, or it's become automated. I don't have anything to do anymore. What am I going to do? Sit at home and twiddle my thumbs.

Speaker 1:

And then I've got all the clients who haven't got a moment to breathe. They're too busy with their work, with meetings and meetings and meetings. Can AI possibly help us eliminate meetings?

Speaker 2:

I hope so.

Speaker 1:

Well, I hope not because then my clients won't have anything to complain about and they won't need me.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah. That's the flip side . You have to weigh the pros and cons, and I'm all about success, advancement, taking it to the next level.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But not to the detriment of the human factor.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. If what you're doing is duplicatable, in other words, you're doing the same thing over and over again. Repetitive. Which, unfortunately, new coaches are doing because they're trained and so they blossom and advance in their mastery. And yes, it can be taken over. What was really great about what you said is that the coaching schools, they're adaptable too .

Speaker 2:

They are.

Speaker 1:

They can make changes to adapt to helping the students get there faster, which they are because they've added this level three training section now which is more about mastery. We could go on and on, but we can't.

Speaker 2:

We could because our imagination is taking over.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the things I'm taking away from this is AI can't replace positivity. Coaches are very positive, optimistic, upbeat, ethical people and we won't stand for anything less to replace us and it can't do what we know today. But again, like you said, 10 years, who knows.

Speaker 2:

Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Okay . The other thing I'm taking away too is you said, oh, you know, that we were talking about how the robots can take care of us. We don't have enough personal care workers. No one will lose their job because there ain't enough people taking the job.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And we're an aging population. How true.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah . It will go where the energy allows too. There's always that thing about the universe is that the universe pours a vacuum. Oh my gosh, there's a vacuum. If we don't create a vacuum, we won't suck it towards us as much .

Speaker 2:

Right .

Speaker 1:

Or if we look at it and get educated on it, that's why we did this issue. That's why we invited you to write the article and you agreed. Get educated on AI, coaches. Figure out how it fits in and not just how it will fit in, how it's already a part of your life.

Speaker 2:

How can be more a part of the efficiency of your life. Because most of the coaches I know don't want to do all that repetitive stuff. What is it they want to do, Sandra? They wanna do what they like to do. They wanna just coach.

Speaker 1:

There's the key.

Speaker 2:

They don't like the back door stuff.

Speaker 1:

They just want to coach. So AI's here to help us all out.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Sandra, thank you so much. Other than what we just said, what would you like our audience to do as a result of the article and this conversation?

Speaker 2:

Well, first and foremost, after you read it, talk to me, talk to other coaches. Hello. Talk to us. If you're a fellow coach, especially if you're starting out and you're confused, talk to us. I know I'm here to help. You can reach out to me. And really, for anyone who is listening, if you mention this podcast, you get a free session with me. How about that?

:

Ooh, look at you go . Distinguishing yourself from the robot.

Speaker 2:

So listen, all you got to do is email me. It's very simple. SHillCPLC@gmail.com, and CPLC, if you can't remember the letters , stand for Certified Professional Life Coach, because I was a Certified Professional Life Coach first.

Speaker 1:

Cool . Well, we seem to have lost Sandra. There we go. She's back.

Speaker 2:

I was gonna say I lost you, but I was still talking.

Speaker 1:

So what was it you were saying? It stands for Certified Professional Life Coach and that's because that was your first training ever. It's a good way to end too because in the end, we're not robots, we're not coaching an organization, we're coaching people and people have lives.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Wow .

Speaker 1:

Well said. Market the way you want to attract them, but in the end, still coaching a human being.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Yes . Well, thank you so much. You just answered my final question about the best way to reach you.

Speaker 2:

SHILLCPLC@gmail.com

Speaker 1:

Cool. Thank you Sandra. And thank you for joining us again on this Beyond The Page episode. You're always fun to talk with. You're a fountain of knowledge and full of possibility and optimism. I love you. I look forward to you being with us again soon.

Speaker 2:

Yes, sir.

Speaker 1:

Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app like Apple or Spotify. We're out there Um , and don't forget to sign up for your free digital issue of Choice Magazine by going to choice-online.com and clicking the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer , enjoy the Journey of Mastery.