Episode #92 ~ Guiding Through Grief: The Role of Silence and Support in Coaching Through Loss with guest, Carrie Hopkins-Doubts
Apr 22, 2024
Garry Schleifer
Discover how to hold space for the unspoken sorrows of life with spiritual resilience coach Carrie Hopkins-Doubts. She joins us to unravel the delicate complexities of grief, guiding coaches past the common missteps of misplaced pity and the urge to fix what cannot be mended. Our conversation ventures into the transformative silence that allows for the raw expression of loss, providing insights into how coaches can become pillars of support by asking how to serve and then listening—truly listening—to the profound stories of those navigating their darkest times.
As we explore the intimate journey of grief, akin to the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly, Carrie illuminates the significance of patience and presence in the healing process. We discuss the importance of respecting professional boundaries while embracing our own humanity, and we underscore the role legacy plays in conscious grieving. Carrie's wisdom is woven throughout our discussion, and she shares the foundations of her thoughtful online course designed to help individuals rebuild their lives after loss. Tune in for a deep and meaningful exploration of how we can accompany others with compassion and unwavering support through their grief.
Discover how to hold space for the unspoken sorrows of life with spiritual resilience coach Carrie Hopkins-Doubts. She joins us to unravel the delicate complexities of grief, guiding coaches past the common missteps of misplaced pity and the urge to fix what cannot be mended. Our conversation ventures into the transformative silence that allows for the raw expression of loss, providing insights into how coaches can become pillars of support by asking how to serve and then listening—truly listening—to the profound stories of those navigating their darkest times.
As we explore the intimate journey of grief, akin to the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly, Carrie illuminates the significance of patience and presence in the healing process. We discuss the importance of respecting professional boundaries while embracing our own humanity, and we underscore the role legacy plays in conscious grieving. Carrie's wisdom is woven throughout our discussion, and she shares the foundations of her thoughtful online course designed to help individuals rebuild their lives after loss. Tune in for a deep and meaningful exploration of how we can accompany others with compassion and unwavering support through their grief.
Welcome to the choice Magazine podcast, Beyond the Page. Choice, the magazine of professional coaching, is your go-to source for expert insights and in-depth features from the world of professional coaching.
Garry Schleifer:
I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm thrilled to have you join us today. In each episode, we go, go figure, beyond the page of articles published in choice magazine and dive deeper into some of the most recent and relevant topics impacting the world of professional coaching. We explore the content and interview the talented minds behind the articles and uncovering the stories that make an impact. choice is more than a magazine. For over 21 years, we've built a community of like-minded people who create, use and share coaching tools, tips and techniques to add value to their businesses and, of course what we all want, make a difference for our clients.
Garry Schleifer:
In today's episode, I'm speaking with spiritual resilience coach Carrie Hopkins-Doubts, who is the author of an article in our latest issue "Unspeakables Uncomfortable Topics we Avoid that Impact Coaching Outcomes. Her article is "Conversations Without Words Coaching Clients Through Grief and Loss. A little bit about Carrie she's a spiritual resilience coach working with people experiencing major life transitions in relationships, careers, health or spirituality. As the founder of Life's Next Chapter Coaching, her passion is helping people consciously rebuild their lives after loss by guiding them to reconnect with their hearts, reclaim their power and realign with their purpose, to create their life's next chapter. She holds a master's degree in spiritual psychology with an emphasis on consciousness, health and healing, as well as certifications in grief counseling, mentor coaching, transformational presence coaching and relationship and divorce coaching. Carrie, thank you so much for joining us today.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Oh Garry, I'm really thrilled to be here with you. Thank you for the invitation.
Garry Schleifer:
Oh.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Thank you for the invitation to write the article.
Garry Schleifer:
Well, and you said that the invitation called to you. I think we can know through the article, but why don't you tell our listeners what had you decide to write this time?
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Yes, I saw the announcement about our next issue is going to be the unspeakables and, of course, my thoughts just went totally there, because grief is an unspeakable. It is one of those things when somebody is in the throes of grieving a major loss in their lives, it's a difficult topic to bring into a coaching session. So I really wanted to write about that, both using my own experience as a grief coach and as somebody who had gone through a recent devastating loss myself. So it just really called to me. It's like I've got to write for this.
Garry Schleifer:
Yeah. Well, thank you for doing so, because this is really a major unspeakable.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
It is yeah.
Garry Schleifer:
Wow, and I want to reference your article too, because there were some really great things in there to get started. First of all, I want to touch on how we see clients or people who are going through this, and you've said very clearly the mistakes we make, right. So fundamental mistakes we make about grieving. They're victims and need pity and sympathy. You need to fix them, rescue them or say something to make them better. How is a coach to do? You know now, if we know that, what's the flip side of that, when you're, when you see that or have that come at you in a coaching conversation?
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Yeah, and it's a very human reaction that we have. It's not just coaches, but it just gets very uncomfortable. Say, you know, like I start out in the article, say your executive coach suddenly, you know, just dissolves into a puddle of tears because last night their spouse said we're done, and they were blindsided and that's all they can think about. And they're just, they're wounded. Before we as a coach go well, let me reschedule for when you feel better. How can we serve that client powerfully, just merely by our presence, instead of trying to jump in there and oh, yeah, you've been talking about your ex, or soon to be ex, you know, for years. And this is the best thing and you'll get over the blah, blah. We have an opportunity to practice what we've learned in coach training is to be fully in presence while someone is going through something unspeakably hard.
Garry Schleifer:
Yeah, no kidding. Well, you know, when you say that two things from the core competencies in my training is, oh my gosh, presence for sure, like feet on the floor people. This is a you know, you're there for your client, and the other one is silence. That's the other word that comes to mind for me. What would you say to a coach when that thing lands? What would you say for them to say first?
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
I'm so sorry to hear that you're going through this. How can I support you? What do you need?
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Even just those curious questions. And, like you said, feet on the floor, take a deep breath, notice in your own body the discomfort, and you know it's again that very human reaction of wanting to fix or take away that person's pain. So we don't feel it it's. In our society, we are not really taught often how to deal with strong emotions, especially displayed by others. We're not comfortable with it, they're not comfortable with it, so we just avoid. So again, as coaches we can just get into our bodies, take a deep breath, really turn our attention to that other person. And how do I serve? And silence. Absolutely.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
You know like ask what would serve you and then you know, just be silent. Well often people going through grief, they need to talk. They need to talk about what's happened and they need uninterrupted time to talk. That's what I've noticed, Garry.
Garry Schleifer:
You know, and I'm going to say this right now, I'm uncomfortable having this conversation about having conversations. Here I am with an expert and I'm having difficulty even talking about what to talk about.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
You could even say that. In the field of a coaching session, you could even say, "oh wow, you know, I notice I'm feeling uncomfortable, so let me just center myself and really be here with you." Oh yeah, absolutely Garry, and I think it's that noticing our own discomfort, where we can really jump off into that well, I'm in the unknown here, that's okay.
Garry Schleifer:
Which, honestly, is every coaches, that's every coaching session, because it's not our lives we're dealing with and we're not the experts in their lives, it's theirs. I think the other thing I'm remembering to hold onto is they're naturally creative, resourceful and whole. Yeah, so that you really have to pull that in your mind forward as well.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
That is true. A lot of times, when people present with a very strong emotion, we leap to the conclusion, especially as a newer coach where it's been drilled into us in our coach training, oh, this person needs a therapist and it may be true, it may not be true. So what I learned to distinguish as a red flag to definitely refer someone to a therapist because it totally is outside the scope of coaching is, I ask a lot of questions. Is there a time in your life when you were seeing a therapist and you had a diagnosis? So, if they share that they had a diagnosis of depression or bipolar disorder or any of those things, that can complicate the grieving process. Also, I would ask questions about the events of the passing of a person, if it's a person, if there's trauma involved there, say, there was a suicide or multiple losses at the same time.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
I worked with one woman who lost her entire family in a car accident. That's a complicated grieving and I worked with that person to refer her to a therapist first.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
And then she came back and we worked after that, so it is in the forefront, I think especially newer coaches minds, of this outside the scope of practice for a coach, and I'm going to get in trouble here.
Garry Schleifer:
well again, newer coaches I hear what you're saying. You know I've been doing this for 23 years and three months. I don't know why I remember that an I just do. And there's another aspect that I've learned as well To add to that is what support do you hAnd? nd what support do you think you need? Because there's also grief support groups and religious support. Yea there's, you know, familial support. Yeah, there's other people in the family. If it's a child, is it the husband. how are they coping? That sort of thing too, righ so there's all sorts of aspects of that. So, yeah, thank you. And it goes back to how can I support you? Exactly? What do you need next?
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
ight now.
Garry Schleifer:
Right now. Oh, even better. Thank you eah.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Yeah.
Garry Schleifer:
Wow. Well, you're obviously an expert at this. You work with clients. You kno who are going through all of this. What made you choose this niche? And, better yet, how do you maintain your own balance and objectivity without getting drained?
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Good stacked questions, love it. Right Like, yeah, et's break that point right Totally against coaching. No that's really cool. When I was going through my coach training program, I had already received a lot of training. I had planned to become a marriage and family therapist and I went through the educational requirements and sort of got into my internship and realized this was not the path that was for me.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
But I had the training, you know, at least academically, and some experiential training as well. So I went into my coach training program and during the process of that program my mother died and my mother and my relationship was a very challenging relationship and so her death really was a difficult grieving process for me. And at the time the coaching program that I was in they offered specialization tracks and they just happened to offer in this year, and I don't think they did that since a coaching for grieving, you know, grief coach .
Garry Schleifer:
Meant to be.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
I was like, well, I guess I'm signing up for that. And it was just that you know, full body, yes, this is what I'm meant to do and, you know, the rest is history. I went on to, yes, specialize in grief coaching. I got my Grief Coach Counseling Certification also, and it was just, it was a calling, absolutely, so never looked back.
Garry Schleifer:
Wow, wow. I was expecting you to say it was in relationship to the death of your husband, but you were going further then that. .
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
That came later. That was in 2012, was when I was finishing my coach certification training and, yeah, that was when my mother passed. My husband passed just, it's almost three years now, and that was another process for sure where, you know, I'd been coaching people going through major life life changes like bereavement, and I kind of specialized in people losing a partner, because that that can just really get you on so many levels and it was my husband's kind of sudden death who threw me into my own program. It's like, well, let's see if this works, and I had a very excellent coach at the time as well. So it was like I had the maps and the territory before and I'd been through the loss of my mom, but, boy, the loss of my husband really had me walking the territory, sometimes on my hands and knees, and it really opened me up to a new level of understanding and compassion about that.
Garry Schleifer:
Yeah, when it becomes personal, it gets a lot clearer, and yeah, wow. Unfortunate and fortunate for us.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Well, thank you. Life is such that we are, as human beings, going to go through loss and grief. It's going to happen to all of us, the longer that you live, for sure. And you'd ask the question how do I maintain my own balance and perspective when I'm working with people?
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
I really recognize them as capable, resilient, whole and creative. I'm not over there trying to rescue them. It's when we try and and get into the other space where we start to feel burnt out and over-involved and over-responsible and things like that. So there's that, but there's also my own spiritual practice that I maintain to keep me in my own center and to keep me in my heart, to keep me in my compassion. Yet also to recognize that this person in front of me has all the resources that they need to effectively deal with the situation. They've just kind of forgotten that with the tsunami of emotions that they're in.
Garry Schleifer:
Yeah, I just. It just goes back to kind of peeling back again and like we always say in coaching, peeling away the layers. In this case it's the circumstance and what's the incident, for example. So, on a personal note, do clients' losses still trigger you, trigger your grief and sadness?
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
That's a great question. We're all human beings and someone's emotions can affect us, for sure, and for myself, yeah, yeah, I'd have to be honest and say that. And so, when I noticed that, I take a deep breath. Like you said, put your feet on the floor, remember this is my space, this is there space, and I might even share that I am aware that you're really touching me in what you're saying. You are reaching into that place where I now grieve, and so let's just honor that. It's like they're not there to take care of me.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
I'm there to be a presence to them. But I'm human and people's stories. You know how it is when you heard that story of the woman who lost her husband, her two sons. It just makes you sort of take it in your breath and feel horrified for a moment just trying to imagine what that must be like for that person.
Garry Schleifer:
Yeah, and we can't even come close unless you know, similar, but that's pretty rare, I would hope. Yeah, wow, wow, wow, wow. I want to reference something else in the article which I really loved and maybe you can expand a little bit on this. You use the analogy butterfly larvae are caterpillars, and you referenced that grieving and loss and the recovery is similar to that. Tell us a little bit more about that.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
When a person chooses to enter into their grieving process consciously, and I make that caveat, you know.
Garry Schleifer:
Yeah, that was really clear and concise.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Because if we just try to avoid it or distance ourselves from it or numb ourselves from the pain, we're not going to avail ourselves of the transformational opportunity that grief becomes. The metaphor of the butterfly really stands out for me because it is an alone process. The grief process is an alone process. We have to go through the metamorphosis on our own, like. So I share an article, the caterpillar, it's the end of the world for them as far as they know. They've gone into this next stage where they've gone into the cocoon, into the dark, and they're busy inside there.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
If we look at the cocoon from the outside, it's like not a lot of action is going on, but inside, you know, all the parts of the caterpillar are changing and becoming the parts of the butterfly and we need that time in the dark, you know. I think there's a real fear sometimes of going into the dark, that emptying process that we go into when we're consciously grieving and we're going to emerge from the chrysalis and we need to emerge from it in our own way. So if somebody reaches into the cocoon and breaks it open and tries to help the butterfly out, the butterfly is going to die. That's just science. Similarly, if we get in there and try to hurry people along or take their pain away from them, they're not given the opportunity to really experience that metamorphosis that's available to them.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
And that was my own experience, really, that taught me that for sure.
Garry Schleifer:
Well it goes back to it's individual grieving, it's your grieving. So you give lots of examples of what people say, what they shouldn't say, what you asked them to say when you were going through it as well to kind of protect your cocoon right.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Stay out of here.
Garry Schleifer:
Yeah, I'm working. I'm going to quote one of the pieces in here that kind of recaps the article in the conversation for me. Healing happens when we are in the presence of another who does not flinch from our pain but holds steady as we experience it, express it and let it go. Well said.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Thank you. That is the experience that we can move into as coaches, and when we do that, we also as coaches, when we're invited into that kind of presence, we are changed also.
Garry Schleifer:
Oh ,always, every situation. This on e just might be a little bit bigger. Yeah, no, that's great. Oh, Carrie, what would you like our audience to do as a result of the article and this conversation?
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Well, one of the things that I can get on my soapbox about.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
It's supporting people who are going through the grieving process. So, you know, if something in the article touched you, or you had a question or a comment or something that you wanted to share with me, please do reach out to me. You can reach me at Carrie@ lifes next chapter coaching. com. I would love to be in conversation with either coaches or people who really want to further their understanding of this process. Also, one of the things that I am working on at this stage of my life is legacy.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
I've created a body of work around the grieving process. It's the rebuilding your life after loss process and program, and so I've created an online course for people. You can self-pace yourself through the material, but I also offer live virtual meetings for people because we need each other in the process also. We need, I think, the presence of another to really be brave and courageous enough to do that conscious grieving. So my intention is to create that space that it can live on also, you know, when I'm no longer here.
Garry Schleifer:
Right, exactly.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Yeah, yeah. So I just invite people to check that out. It's Rebuilding Your Life After Loss. Or just contact me on my email and I'd love to be in conversation with people.
Garry Schleifer:
That's Carrie@ lifesnextchaptercoaching. com. I remembered that one. Pretty good I just wanted to make sure everyone heard it was Carrie with an IE, not a Y or whatever.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
Oh yeah, thank you. I appreciate that yeah.
Garry Schleifer:
Carrie, thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode.
Carrie Hopkins-Doubts:
My pleasure. What a privilege it is to work with you, Garry, and to write for choice.
Garry Schleifer:
Right back at you. We wouldn't be who we are without people like you. That's it for this episode of Beyond the P age. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app. I know we're popular on Spotify and Apple. Well, obviously you found us if you're listening. If you're not a subscriber, you can sign up for your free digital issue of choice Magazine by either scanning the QR code over there, I always get that mixed up, or by going to choice-online. com and clicking the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thanks again, Carrie.
