Episode #96 ~ Tackling the Elephant in the Room: The Critical Role of Addressing the Unspoken in Coaching with guest, Paul Crick

Discover the transformative power of confronting the proverbial elephant in the room in our latest episode featuring management consulting maven Paul Crick. We're peeling back the layers to discuss Paul's pivotal article, "We Need to Talk: Dealing with the Elephant in the Room," and the art of navigating through the minefield of uncomfortable conversations that await in the coaching realm. Learn how language not only reflects but also shapes our organizational culture, and why tackling the unsaid is essential for real progress and client support.

With Paul's seasoned insights, we explore the intricate dance of human emotions and the ethical tightrope coaches walk daily. I open up about a harrowing case of sexual harassment and the ensuing catharsis that brave conversations can seed, leading to lasting change. This episode stresses the value of trust, the importance of recognizing when clients need different coaching support, and the perils of letting ego obstruct our professional responsibilities. Sharpen your coaching toolkit as we discuss the safeguards and strategies necessary for fostering these pivotal dialogues.

Rounding out our discussion, we examine how organizational culture can weigh heavily on personal well-being, often blurring the lines between dedication and burnout. I share personal anecdotes and reflect on the cultural forces that push employees to the brink, underscoring the critical need for setting boundaries and making mindful career choices. As we express our gratitude for Paul's contributions and nod to the GRACE framework, we invite you to absorb these insights and carry them into your professional journey. Join us for an episode that promises to challenge and enrich your perspective as a coach.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article https://bit.ly/3QVlZs2

Learn more about Paul Crick here.

The Pocket Dojo link here.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Transcript

Garry Schleifer: 0:08

Welcome to the choice Magazine podcast, Beyond the Page. choice, the magazine of professional coaching, is your go-to source for expert insights and in-depth features from the world of professional coaching. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm thrilled to have you join us today. In each episode, we go, go figure, beyond the page of articles published in choice magazine and dive deeper into some of the most recent and relevant topics impacting the world of professional coaching, exploring the content, interviewing the talented minds, like Paul's, behind the articles and uncovering the stories that make an impact.

Garry Schleifer: 0:44

choice is more than a magazine. For over 22 years, we have built a community of like-minded people who create, use and share coaching tools, tips and techniques to add value to their business and, of course, to impact their clients. In today's episode, I'm speaking with the coach Paul Crick, who's the author of an article in our latest issue. For those of you who are watching, it looks pretty nice. Oh, look, I got replaced. Anyway, there's the background. Can't do that with a background. There we go. No, the title is Unspeakables: Uncomfortable Topics We Avoid that Impact Coaching Outcomes. Paul's article is entitled "e Need to Talk. Dealing with the Elephant in the Room. A little bit about Paul. He's the founder and managing partner of his own leadership development consultancy, the Elevate Partnership. He specializes in enabling leaders and teams to work together better from the inside out to cut the invisible costs of team collaboration. Paul, great to see you again. Thanks for joining us for another podcast and for writing for us.

Paul Crick: 1:48

Well, thank you for the invitation, Garry, and thanks for having me today.

Garry Schleifer: 1:51

Yeah, no problem. So I don't know enough about your background to know why you were called to write this article.

Paul Crick: 1:59

I spent 22 years in frontline management consulting, working all over the world for some of the large consultancies like PwC, IBM, Capgemini. I worked for a couple of others and I totaled it up the other day that ended up being something like 50 clients in that career, which was quite staggering, and I wouldn't go so far as to say I've seen it all. But I've certainly come across most things, and in a lot of cultures, not just work cultures, but because in consultancy or working in international, multicultural, distributed teams and now with the added complication of hybrid, then there are just things you notice that you think, hmm, that could have gone better, or we're all looking at this and we all know it's there but nobody's speaking about it. I'm curious to know why is that? Why is that? I mean certain topics. It's none of our business, frankly, and certain topics don't always belong in the workplace.

Paul Crick: 3:13

There may be contexts where it does, but it struck me that we talk a lot about culture in the workplace, organisational culture, and I think my view of it, and I'm happy for people to disagree, is that culture comes down to conversation and language. The language we use.

Paul Crick: 3:33

There's a good friend of mine that uses a very simple phrase, which is "words make worlds.

Paul Crick: 3:39

And I think those three words are so simple. They describe how our workplace functions, or doesn't, and therefore, conversation really lies at the heart of our symbols, our values. Even if you point to something on the wall and say here's a picture or here's a flag or something, you have to use language to describe it. Because language is imprecise, then we all vary in how we would describe it slightly and therefore, the impact of the words we use can be different and consequently, over that 22 years, I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly, both on the consulting side and also on the client side. So I felt drawn, as I get older, to sort of worry less about what people think and just try and help coaches think about. If you need to speak truth or you need to draw out a truth, or you need to help people see a truth to make progress, then how do you have that conversation in a way that is constructive, is safe and doesn't create some kind of storm in your trail because you've not really thought about it enough.

Garry Schleifer: 4:53

Yeah, well, thank you for that, because you have a way for us coaches to get prepared with the coaches checklist sidebar and page 25. So thank you very much for that. I have to ask, like, how do you draw out whatever this unspeakable is?

Paul Crick: 5:18

So let me give you an. A very, very good friend of mine is an expert on mental health and I'm going to mention the topic of suicide now. So if people are bothered by that, I just want to flag that to give them a moment to step away. There was only an incidence with one of the large consultancies, one of their employees, unfortunately, another recorded case of completing suicide and the reason cited was the pressure of work, and it certainly is a pressured environment. I think it's a pressured environment for all of us. So how do you have that conversation? How do you have the conversation that says are you thinking about it? I've noticed. How do you treat that?

Paul Crick: 6:15

There's a very clear distinction in ICF guidelines and ethics about coaching is coaching, mental health is mental health, and yet you and and I and most people listening to this, know that we don't actually separate out the two. It becomes difficult and therefore, what do we do as coaches? And as coaches, I think our role as a professional coach is to be able to identify the issue and signpost to professional help to the appropriate thing, and you need to be able to have that conversation. I can't imagine many coaches listening to this would not want to be helpful, be supportive and therefore, having that training, having an understanding of how to approach a conversation like that becomes really, really important.

Paul Crick: 7:09

As you know, the world of work just now seems particularly difficult with increasing numbers of layoffs, delays in spending, so people with businesses trying to get revenue to to pay bills and put food on the table and keep people going to school and all that kind of thing. We all know it's difficult. We all know it's challenging right now and yet we all keep very British about it. And I can say that British person. You know, very stiff upper a lip.

Paul Crick: 7:44

I think it was John Cleese who famously said you know, the ambition of the average British person is to die without having embarrassed themselves. So it's a bit of a dilemma. It's a bit of a dilemma thinking about, well, how do I encourage people to talk about this. So I think a lot of it's judgment. I think you do need to separate out what's coaching and what's not and then be prepared to hand it off. But if there's nothing to hand off to, then broaching the topic only creates potentially more difficulty. So there's a certain amount of preparedness. I think part of that preparedness is an honest assessment and a look in the mirror that says am I the right person to do this or is there someone better, better qualified, more experienced to do that?

Paul Crick: 8:36

So I did train as a psychotherapist and part of that training was really interesting, because you have clients walk through your door and they sit down and they tell you what their presenting issue is and your immediate thought is oh good God, how do I deal with this? And that's what supervision is for and, to be fair, that's what coaching supervision is for. So when you have that situation, if you're not in supervision. Then you know, I really question that for this very reason, because you will meet people who are going through stuff that you don't realize they're going through.

Garry Schleifer: 9:19

Yeah, and how do you, I think you said the signpost, how do you?

Paul Crick: 9:24

Yeah, where do you sign the signpost? And what would you do? What would you do if someone said you look really stressed and bothered and you want to have the conversation. I've seen this for quite some time. What's going on would be an open question, and then you might say, well, this, that and the other, and they may give you some clue words like, well, I'm feeling a bit desperate, feeling a bit lost.

Paul Crick: 9:52

Anxious. To which then, if you've had the training, it's quite reasonable to ask the question are you thinking about doing something that would cause harm to yourself? And usually people always are scared of asking that question because it's like oh well, if I ask that question, will that then trigger an event? And it's kind of like no, because nine times out of 10, in fact, 9.9 times out of 10, people are looking for help, and if you acknowledge it and then can just be present with them, that often gives them enough respite to say, yeah, okay, I need some help.

Garry Schleifer: 10:34

I am going to quote what you quoted, "as Dr. Gabor Mate notes, psychological safety isn't the absence of threat. Psychological safety is the presence of human connection, and that really speaks to what you just said in my mind.

Paul Crick: 10:46

Yeah, I loved that when I read that and I thought, yeah, that's absolutely right, because almost every time you read a definition of psychological safety, it's always about let's take the threat away and it isn't.

Paul Crick: 10:58

We are social. We are social beings. We connect through our interpersonal neurobiology as much as anything else, and when we do that, we know we're safe. Our sympathetic nervous system kicks in. Our relax and digest system comes online and therefore we've become more relaxed and more more willing to speak about stuff even if we are feeling in a place where we've come from a place of absolute stress. Seeing and witnessing other people, as any coach will tell you, is probably one of the most powerful things you can do for someone else, and to do it without judgment.

Garry Schleifer: 11:40

I know.

Paul Crick: 11:40

I'm know I am talking to the choir.

Garry Schleifer: 11:44

But you know, to that point though, we all have our biases, but it's checking those too and doing the work on okay, what's coming up for me that's getting in the way of our coaching conversation. .

Garry Schleifer: 11:53

What's this bringing up for me? Getting our own support, supervision, our own therapy, whatever that might be. So, yeah, that's great. And you know, I'm just sticking in my mind about what you said about the definition of coaching versus therapy. In there they said therapy emphasizes psychopathology, emotions and the past to understand the present. That kind of got me because I asked, I think it's in the in the ICF Core Competencies, you want to know as much as you can about the client, and that includes the past. , because they're only in it does, and this becomes a very fine line.

Paul Crick: 12:33

It does and this becomes a very fine line. I think the longer you do this, you kind of know where your boundaries are and where you're skating along the edges of, because it's like when we go into work we don't sort of take our past off and stick it at the door and hang it up in the closet and go, right, okay, I'm here for work now. Let's do that and forget all that. That accompanies us and the past can be simply what happened this morning. You had a fight with your partner or something happened to your kids. There's a medical emergency and you're frazzled because of that and I find it difficult to separate the two. There's a whole conversation around DSM-5 and the value of it and who created it and for what purpose. Once you really get into it, it sort of becomes a lot grayer than people would have you believe, but there is a piece of judgment that needs to happen.

Paul Crick: 13:38

I remember when I first qualified. I cringe at the thought of how I was when I qualified because I can do this thing and like it's amazing. I did a thing called NLP and it helps people. People have thought I'd joined a cult. It was like here, let me help you, I can fix that for you. And it's kind of like I look back and I just go oh my God. But I think for some people that's a rite of passage that you have to go through to mature into being a coach, to go well, I'm not here to rescue you. My job is to support you and enable you if that's what you want me, as opposed to another coach, to do, or you feel you need the coaching support rather than let me help you. I'll rescue and fix you. It doesn't work like that.

Garry Schleifer: 14:23

I t's knowing that what this question is about the past and understand the present and our role as a coach and what would not be our role as a coach. I think for me when it starts to get uncomfortable about the past or repeats itself or that sort of thing, I think that would be one of the signals for me that it's like okay, let's take a step back from this part of the conversation, maybe not physically, but that kind of thing. So yeah, thank you. What's the most common kind of thing you saw of an unspeakable that's in corporations? You said you worked in consultancy. Was there a common theme?

Paul Crick: 15:14

Oh, so I have seen bullying. I have seen sexual harassment. I have seen people belittled in public. I suppose that's bullying. Yeah, I think bullying and pressure is particularly prevalent in some consulting organizations. I'm four years out of it now so I could say, well, I don't know what's current. I'm still in touch with some colleagues and you still get the roll of the eyes that says no, it's still mad here, which is their way of saying the culture is interesting. And so I think that peer pressure to do things, you know it's like you do your job eight till six and then you give back and if the client needs you, then the client needs you whenever they need. Part of me gets that and if you're young and you don't have responsibilities, that's a great way to get some excellent training.

Paul Crick: 16:17

I remember being in a bar in Soho. It was one of these after work things that we'd all finish and it was a late after work thing. We'd all sort of finish work at nine o'clock, got something to eat and then descended to a bar somewhere to sort of chew the fat of the day and and what have you? And I remember a guy sitting on a stool at the bar and he said, well, if I don't enjoy this, I'm going to make sure no one else enjoys it as well. And I just thought, wow, what would cause you want to want to?

Paul Crick: 16:46

And then I get curious because I mean on the face value that's kind of a shocking statement to make. All right, there was some alcohol involved in that, so they may be loose lips, but I always curious to think, hmm, I wonder what causes you to choose to say that? What drives that behavior? I'm kind of interested. And then there's a whole, whole past and unpacking of a story that then and we didn't get that far because I think I was tired. I think it was about two in the morning and I'd had enough, I was ready to go and he wasn't a paying client.

Paul Crick: 17:19

No, he wasn't. He was a lovely guy. A family man who worked incredibly hard and you know we forget that everybody has to deal with pressure as they see it and deal with it in the way that's best for them. So that, for him, was his way of doing it. There's no right or wrong. There's just that which is disempowering and that which is empowering.

Garry Schleifer: 17:45

And what about in your coaching practice? What's one that comes to mind in an example of one of these unspeakables that you managed to see and draw out?

Paul Crick: 17:55

I worked with a very talented senior woman who experienced multiple sexual harassments, but there was one that kind of overstepped the mark to the point where nothing untoward happened physically, but every other line had been overstepped. It was really helping her work through the process of so what do I do about this? I want to do it for me, I want to do it for other women in the organization. What's the impact on my reputation? How do I handle this in a way that's professional? Working in the culture I work in. It's not like working in Western culture which was much more masculine and the role of women was seen not quite less than, but very close, pretty close. And and therefore helping her work through her thought process and rehearsing what she was going to say to who was really really important.

Paul Crick: 19:20

And all of that's, that can be tricky ground

Paul Crick: 19:28

If you're in a place as a coach, taking a view of trying to fix things, you know you just cannot.

Paul Crick: 19:39

And I have to say my psychotherapy background was extremely helpful in being able to sort of try and present a canvas of just something to reflect against and just for something for her to give voice to and to encourage her to do that and to work through her rage and her feelings of disappointment and all the other emotions that go with that, to then get past that, to say right, this is what I'm going to do and this is how I'm going to do it.

Paul Crick: 20:14

And she had a tremendously positive impact because the HR team that helped her rectified the situation. This particular individual was actually removed from the business and then there was some education put in behind it that said, this is just to reinforce what we mean by standards of behavior. That includes this thing, and therefore we encourage you to speak up and here is a way to speak up as needed. I thought, well good on her for doing doing that work, because that actually produced some positive change, because she was able to find a way to give voice to what perhaps would have been seen as something unspeakable.

Paul Crick: 21:05

And then she becomes that crazy woman. Or how to speak truth to power in a way where the extremely hierarchical organization where power is exerted through to business titles and seniority and deference in natural deferential behaviors towards titles, and so for me that was a great result for her.

Garry Schleifer: 21:39

That speaks to you as well. I have the same feeling with I am working with women. We already go into the conversation thinking or being aware that the people can think of the coach versus client as a differential power dynamic right and work towards just saying you know your life better than I do kind of thing. So kudos to you for having a woman trust you. You obviously did enough work to do that human connection where she could trust talking to a guy about some guys that were harassing her right.

Paul Crick: 22:12

I am the first to hold up my hand and say look, I'm not a woman so I have no idea. In some ways I'm not qualified in that respect. But I am qualified as a coach and therefore I've got a reasonable idea of how to connect. And not everyone will connect with me and I'm very happy to say look, I'm sensing this isn't quite comfortable for you. Would you rather work with someone else and give them that way out? Otherwise I'm just polishing my own ego, aren't I?

Garry Schleifer: 22:40

Yeah, no, we don't want that. I have an interesting question about one of the things you wrote, rather, on confronting uncomfortable truths. Number four impact on productivity and well-being. Organizations should examine the potential impact on employee well-being and overall productivity of discussing some untouchables. How does that work? Like, how do they go about finding out? Is it because they've got a history of what's impacting the organization?

Paul Crick: 23:18

I was in one particular culture which is a heavily sales-driven culture and, yes, without sales you don't produce the revenue or that kind of thing, so there's not the oxygen to grow the business. I get that. I understand that. When someone increases the targets by 20% in sort of the half year and you go, okay, why did we do that? Because we did. Why? And then it goes quiet and what that does is that then filters down through the organization into people. You know we need sales, we need this.

Paul Crick: 23:50

So you're on sales cadence calls and and people are getting called out, not just called out, they're getting shouted at and screamed at because it's like, well, where are the numbers Have have you done it yet? And all that, and this, is on a public call, , it's not terms in terms of that that that filters through. But then when you do sort of your QBRs, your quarterly business reviews that that then filters into that that that pressure, that stress and know, depending on their tolerance for stress, which we all have different tolerances for, they'll be the straw that breaks the camel's. Therefore therefore you've not only got the impact on the individual, the people around the individual, where , just slumps, and there's this expectation that you're on all the time. Now, no one can be on all the time, you know.

Garry Schleifer: 24:51

Well, except for us coaches, we're always excellent.

Paul Crick: 24:55

I'm not. Don't know about you. I always worry when I see the word relentless in values or missions and you go, oh yeah, really. I personally steer clear of that kind of language now because it just seems to come with a world of pressure and responsibility that dehumanizes people. I watch people in their consulting careers advance and then they've got no time for the kids and they're talking about I don't have time for my kids. But then I'm in a financial position where it becomes difficult to actually extricate myself from that, even though I want to, and therefore in some respects I'm kind of trapped where I am and I'm not sure.

Paul Crick: 25:52

Yeah, I'm then at my crossroads that goes, oh, where do I go? How do I rebalance all this and stay where I am? Or how do I change this so that I can move to a place where I get some of my time back? Because some people look at climbing the organizational hierarchy and they look at it and they go. Well, if that's what it takes to be great and to be great in this organization, I don't like the look of great in this organization and frankly, I don't want to be part of it, and then you get looked at. I mean, that was me. Then you get looked at as though you've got four heads.

Paul Crick: 26:26

It's like why don't you want to climb that? Because I don't. No not everybody's cup of tea. And it's not for everyone, and it is for other people, and all that matters is make a mindful choice. I think it's when you end up in that situation you go, how the hell did I get here?

Garry Schleifer: 26:43

Yeah, I'm currently working with an organization and they've hired us to assist their employees with career conversations and the culture is like you said. It's like what's next, what's next, what's next, or you know? My conversations are more about where do you want the grass to be greener, because it's not always greener on the other side? No, exactly, it's greener where you water it. If you don't feel like you're ready or want to advance, how do you make your life better where you already are?

Paul Crick: 27:19

Well, I think you have to get comfortable in your own skin. And then that becomes a whole different set of conversations, because it's like well, what causes you not to want to state your needs and define your boundaries in a way that is respectful but is firm, that says, yeah, I will do this, I won't do this, or here's a trade-off yeah, I will do this, but this is what I want back in return. If you want me to work a week on my proposal in through to a Monday, okay, I can do that, but you know, let's talk about the balance of that.

Garry Schleifer: 27:59

Well the impact of the consequences like okay, so what do I get in return?

Paul Crick: 28:01

What's the quid pro quo? What's the give and take? And I think business is having to learn that there is more. There is more giving than taking to restore the balance, and I think it's interesting to watch that.

Garry Schleifer: 28:17

Yeah, I right away think of a friend of mine. Here's the problem 24/ 7 global organization and I think the biggest challenge that this person has is that they don't set their own boundaries, because, to your point, when you're single and you've got plenty of time and there's opportunity, you may just say, ok, I'll do that, instead of going home and sitting there and watching, reading or whatever. But people with families always have that excuse. I'm sorry, I don't mean it to be slight, but they have that reason. That's better, that reason to go home. And when we don't have kids or they're grown and gone, then we don't have that reason. But what's wrong with making a reason that serves you? Because society sometimes just says, well, kids, that's okay. Fine, you can go and take care of your kids, but you want to go out for dinner with a friend? Come on, there's work kind of thing, right?

Paul Crick: 29:09

I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because we will sit at the feet of elite sport, and elite sport will tell us well, the most important training is recovery, and you go so why are we being selective about this? And the answer is because we're chasing our revenue targets. Because if we don't make our revenue targets, then there are consequences to that bonuses or earnings per share, or Wall Street shares, prices, that kind of thing. I get it, and that's why we need the conversation that says, yeah, we get it. So let's figure out how to do it better rather than just assuming that the status quo will prevail and that it's all about force. It's like well, how about we apply some power instead? Power with power to rather than power over? Yeah, well said.

Garry Schleifer: 30:02

Wow, what a great conversation, Paul. Thank you very much for allowing us to go deeper into your article. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article and this conversation?

Paul Crick: 30:14

So I have developed a thing called the GRACE framework. So if you imagine the GROW model. So very quickly, everybody knows about what emotional intelligence is. It's the gap between a stimulus and response and the ability to make a choice of how you're going to respond. The question I always ask is, so tell me how you do it? And it always goes very quiet.

Paul Crick: 30:38

So the GRACE framework is a framework I have developed that I want people to help me test and to come and question so I can make it better, I can make it more robust. I've been testing it for a couple of years so I've now got brave enough to release it into the public, and the place you'll find it is a Substack. So I don't know if people are familiar with Substack. It's a bit like Medium, but it's the same platform, same sort of platform where you can write, and I've been writing about the Grace framework and other things to do with Teams. But I'd like you to go there.

Paul Crick: 31:13

It's a Substack called the Pocket Dojo and I'd like people to come along and just leave me comments, ask me questions, if people are willing to be brave enough to be interviewed for the book that's currently underway. I'd love to chat to you, but as a first step, I'd just like you to go read it, tell me what you think, leave me comments. Let's have a dialogue. I really want to open the conversation about how do we do it, because I think once we get that, there'll be less of a need to have to talk about things that are unspeakable. We can talk about most things, and give us that location again.

Paul Crick: 31:49

So it's a sub stack. So if you type in to Google the pocket dojo sub stack and my name or some combination of that, that will bring you to the link, and it'll just take you to the homepage and all the posts are listed there and the GRACE framework is at the top.

Garry Schleifer: 32:11

Of course, they will be in the podcast notes as well . So happy to help, and we have an audience that just loves that sort of thing, so I wouldn't be surprised if it hits the mark and you get some great responses. Thank you for sharing that. Anything else, oh, how do we reach you? How does someone reach you if they want to know more.

Paul Crick: 32:24

The best place to find me is LinkedIn. I think that's the place that is sort of the gateway to my world. Please do connect, come and say hello, let's have a conversation. I'm always interested in getting to know people in this profession. I think what we do is amazing and helpful for people and I'm always looking to learn from others. So if you'd love a conversation over a virtual coffee for 30 minutes, tap me up on LinkedIn and I'll talk to you there.

Garry Schleifer: 32:51

Awesome, thank you very much, very generous of you. I'm the same way. Love it, love it, love it. And it's funny, you know, it's kind of is it an unspeakable or unthinkable? People are like you say well, you ring me up right, and they'll never They always assume I am too busy to talk to them.

Paul Crick: 33:11

I'll always give people half an hour. It may not be right away, but within a couple of weeks I'll always find half an hour.

Garry Schleifer: 33:19

Yeah, exactly, and send me your link. And that makes my life easier because I have all the stuff that's internal that I can write over easily, right? Great. Thank you very much. Thanks for joining us again and for writing another article. You're obviously going to contribute again when another topic inspires you. Maybe about the GRACE framework.

Paul Crick: 33:40

It could be. It could indeed yes. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a lovely conversation.

Garry Schleifer: 33:52

It has. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, like you did to get here. If you're not a subscriber, you can sign up for our free digital issue by scanning the QR code. Notice I got that one right this time or by going to choice-online. com and clicking the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thanks again, Paul. Thank you.