Episodes 102: Navigating Client Fit and Chemistry with guest, Jeremy Lewis

Discover how to create transformative coaching relationships with executive coach Jeremy Lewis, who joins us to break down the magic of "Coaching Chemistry." Find out if you or your client is truly ready for a coaching journey and learn essential tips on preparing for chemistry sessions, identifying your ideal client, and articulating your unique selling proposition. Jeremy's insights shine a spotlight on the mutual responsibility of both coach and client in fostering a productive partnership, underscoring the importance of a mutual fit and seamless understanding.

Embark on a deeper exploration into the nuanced world of coaching, examining key elements like time, territory, and task. We shed light on the art of holding space for clients and zero in on the specific demographic of female senior managers in their 40s who face career hurdles. Real-life stories illustrate the triumphs and challenges of the coaching process, while practical advice on targeted marketing and concluding chemistry conversations ensures you're prepared for every scenario. Jeremy's wisdom, accumulated over nearly 15 years, offers invaluable guidance on navigating client fit, delivering joy and fulfillment in the coaching profession.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Jeremy Lewis here.

Gift: Book a complimentary review of your coaching practice! Answer a few questions about your wants and needs from coaching supervision to receive a one-page summary of your responses with supervision recommendations and the opportunity to book a free initial session with Jeremy with no obligation.

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Transcript

Garry Schleifer: 0:08

Welcome to the choice Magazine podcast, Beyond the Page. I know I always make that sound like the Twilight Zone but it's not.

Garry Schleifer: 0:15

It comes for you from choice, the magazine of professional coaching, as your go-to source for expert insights and in-depth features from the world of professional coaching. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm thrilled to have you listening to us today and some of you watching. In each episode, we go beyond the page of articles published in choice, the magazine of professional coaching, and dive deeper into some of the most recent and relevant topics impacting the world of professional coaching, exploring the content and interviewing the talented minds, like Jeremy's, behind the articles and uncovering the stories that make an impact. choice is more than just a magazine. For over 21 years, we've built a community of like-minded people who create, use and share coaching tools, tips and techniques to add value to their businesses. And, of course, what do we all want? Impact our clients making a difference.

Garry Schleifer: 1:07

In today's episode, I'm speaking with Executive Coach, Jeremy Lewis, who's the author of an article in our latest issue "A Livelihood from Coaching Feasible or Fanciful" His article is titled Coaching Chemistry Determining a Client's Readiness for Coaching. A little bit about Jeremy he's an EMCC accredited executive coach, an EMCC accredited coaching supervisor and a researcher. He's been coaching chief executives and their teams, predominantly in local government and housing, for more than 10 years. He provides supervision for self-employed coaching and internal coaches at all career stages. He also runs a private Facebook group, the Coaching Conversation, as a coaching community of practice, and has lectured in team coaching on the MSC in coaching and mentoring at Sheffield Hallam University. Wow, robust bio, Jeremy. Thank you for joining us today.

Jeremy Lewis: 2:03

Thank you very much for inviting me along, Garry.

Garry Schleifer: 2:07

So I was saying to you we should have recorded, because my first question is always so what had you decide to write an article for us about this and at this time and I'm hoping you can regenerate that awesome conversation we were having about what sparked you.

Jeremy Lewis: 2:28

Sure. My passion is coaching supervision and when I'd signed up to subscribe to choice magazine, I noticed that I just missed the supervision edition. This was for the last year sometime. And I thought, well, oh well, we'll come to that in due course.

Jeremy Lewis: 2:45

But I was really excited at putting pen to paper. I'd just done a masterclass in navigating the coaching chemistry session for a handful of coaches in the UK and Europe and the material was really at my fingertips and I thought, well, I'm going to have a go at putting it down on paper and seeing if I can share some of this practical wisdom, I guess. You mentioned I'm a researcher. My research into coaching supervision has been around generating practical wisdom. What is this coaching supervision thing? So on and so forth. And so I thought what practical wisdom from having run the master class in navigating coaching chemistry can I share and could I get down on paper and see if choice is interested in it? And here we are. Delighted to have been published and delighted to come and talk about it and share some of those tips and tricks to improve coaches success rate at winning clients at the chemistry stage.

Garry Schleifer: 3:48

Thank you very much, and perfect timing too. It's interesting. I reread the article, as I always do before each interview, and I really loved the fact that you talked about it being both parties responsible for the chemistry, and it reminds me of the word that I always use is, are we a fit for each other? And it's a great reminder for us on many aspects which we'll get into, about how important it is to be coaching right from the time we meet our clients. So coaching chemistry session, so this is the getting to know each other. Are we going to coach together? And what do you think is the most important thing you can do to prepare for a coaching chemistry session other than breathe deeply and remember it's not about you.

Jeremy Lewis: 4:39

Yeah, absolutely it's not. I say it's not about you, but I think there's something there about it. If we only make it about the potential client, we try and build rapport and we might miss the opportunity. So the fact that we are looking to see if there is a fit. We are looking to see if not only are you the right coach for them but are they ready for coaching with you? So the way to assess that, there's two things I think are really important. The first one is understanding who your ideal client is, understanding what kind of people you really like to work with, because if you get that right and you've got your marketing right, then you can be fairly confident that the person turning up is in your sweet spot in that coaching chemistry session. So that will be really important to understand who your ideal client is, so you know who you're going looking for to speak with.

Jeremy Lewis: 5:35

And then the second thing you need to understand is why you, who are you as a coach? What's your unique selling point, if you will? What market are you in, who's your ideal client, what kind of problems do they have that you can fix? Because it's so easy to fall into the trap that, well, I'm a coach, I can coach anybody. Yeah, that might well be true. However, knowing that the person turning up is someone that you probably would like to work with, and here's why I can help you. I understand your problem when I hear your problem, I want to explain that I believe I can help and then, if the match is there, if the fit is there, you've already had a first coaching conversation, you're already into the contracting stage, really, and you come out with much higher chance of winning the business.

Garry Schleifer: 6:37

I just thought of something else that I always wonder where is the appropriate place? How do you determine their understanding of what coaching is and what it's not?

Jeremy Lewis: 6:48

Yeah, it's a great question. So I've adopted a five-stage process that we talk about in the article, and the first step is to understand their problem right, so we'll park that for the moment. We'll assume we've done that. The second step is to outline what you do as a coach and your task of coaching. So, to quote Stephen Covey's famous Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, you know, he talks about seek first to understand and then to be understood. So, getting across your coaching method, what coaching is is in that second part, is seeking to be understood. So really understand what the client's issue is, what the potential problems are. And then you want to be saying things like that must be, you know, really empathizing, I guess at the end of that first stage, really deeply understanding that their problem is unique, it presents in their world, to them uniquely. However, we've probably seen similar issues before so we can genuinely say I believe I can help you. Without saying you know, I've heard all this before. They don't want to hear that. They want to hear, wow, that must be really difficult. I can really feel your problem is. And you're playing those words back and then you say let me tell you how we might work on that, and then you can get into the explanation and description of what your coaching is. What is that? I often heard it referred to. I heard it when I think it was when I was training as a supervisor.

Jeremy Lewis: 8:22

Our tutor said it's time, territory and task. Right, so what is the task of coaching? What is the territory of coaching? So what it is, what coaching is and what it isn't. So I'm not going to give advice. This is to hold the space for you to think it through for yourself, for example, or however you describe it. The task of coaching is to work on that, work on your goals. And the time is, you're getting into the nuts and bolts of we'll meet so frequently, we'll meet for this length of time, it'll be on the internet or it could be face-to-face, so on and so forth. So if you're covering time, territory and task, then that's a nice framework to describe how, what your coaching is, and and they get a sense of who they might be working with.

Garry Schleifer: 9:08

Thank you so much for that. I was just referring to your article and it's one simple line. Step two is all about the territory of coaching, what your coaching is and is not, and then the opportunity about your coaching philosophy or process, if that's relevant in there. So that's great. Thank you for that. So I want to know so who's your ideal client and why should they choose you?

Jeremy Lewis: 9:38

That's a good question. So I know my ideal client is female, she's in her 40s, she's a senior manager in an organization and she's feeling blocked. She's looking up the way and saying I could do that job at the next level up, maybe direct this is UK speak maybe direct level of an organization and I may be in an assistant sort of role, you know. And yet I'm looking at that group of people going. Do I really want to be one of them? Do I trust them well enough to step into that space? How will I, you know, will my imposter syndrome kick in, that I am a female in that environment which is largely male, perhaps? So on and so forth? And I'd say probably 80% of my clients are female and in their 40s and in those sorts of positions in the coaching world. And, curiously, my coaching supervision clients are female and in their 40s and have had jobs like that and have left to become coaches. Go figure.

Garry Schleifer: 10:41

Go figure. Just a coincidence. Yes, well, be careful what you ask for. You got exactly what you wanted and thank you very much for that. Very clear, like you really got into more of the nuts and bolts of it than I thought. And women in their 40s and their problems so great modeling. So thank you very much for that. Excellent. Wish I could be that clear. I work for companies where they give clients to me and my question back to them is so, why did you choose me? So I have some context as to what we might be working on or what they're looking to me for. I guess you might call that process or philosophy.

Jeremy Lewis: 11:18

Yeah, absolutely, and that's that two-way conversation that you're then saying this is where I'm at and the kind of successes I've had. You know, I've literally just come off a call with a coaching conversation with a female client who's just moved organizations to get promoted to another job. She's in that age bracket. She's an absolute ideal client, total success. We started the coaching program in the kind of, I think it might be time for me to move on. I need a bit of help getting prepared for interviews and how can I deliver that really well and how can I land in my job? And we've just signed off after a few sessions and she's saying well, when I get my new job. I'll be coming back because I need to land in this role really successfully so I'd like to get some more coaching.

Jeremy Lewis: 12:04

And the other thing I'd like to say at that point actually is someone told me that when you're doing your marketing as well, it's like you're throwing a dart at a dart board, right, and you're aiming at the bullseye. So the closer you can define your bullseye, then you're throwing your darts, you're marketing messages out. I'm aiming at that 40-something female aspiring executive, and now I might miss the bullseye right, but other people will hear that message and see that message and the dart will land for them and they'll ring me up and guess what. They're in their 50s and male, but something that I've said resonates with them and they want a coaching conversation. They want a chemistry conversation too, and that's okay, because of course we can coach everyone, can't we?

Garry Schleifer: 12:50

Right, exactly, yeah. Please don't say no if it doesn't fit your ideal perfectly to the letter person you're targeting for. You know, when you said that about the dart and the darts, it was like, okay, there's one energetic force and that's you throwing it to what you're visualizing. But I also have a sense of like energy helping that dart make it to the center, and that's the people that you're calling to work with you. I don't know, it was this weird thing that I just saw. Very cool, and you're right. So much easier to know what you're aiming for if you described it. We all know the little dot in the center, so that's great. So we've had the chemistry conversation. How do we end it? What's the best way?

Jeremy Lewis: 13:37

Really simple is ask for the business. It really is that thing that has the confidence to say.

Jeremy Lewis: 13:52

And the words I will use, for example, would be how do you wish to proceed? It's a coaching question. It's an open question and they'll tell you. They'll say well, I'm seeing three more people, I'm seeing someone else. So by the end of next week I should know. I say, okay, I hope to hear from you then. Either way, would you let me know either way, because what I can't stand is having things left open. So I always look for an end date. I say by when. If you've got more people to see, when will you know? If I haven't heard, will I follow up with you? So I've always got some way of closing it down. I'd rather know that the answer is I've chosen someone else, because that's then gone and I'm on to the next opportunities, you know, without keeping loads of things open. And do you know? Sometimes if you've had a really good chemistry conversation, you know I might start by saying, I remember recently, this was earlier this year, someone had come on a coaching chemistry call and said I'm seeing three people. I've seen one already, you're the second

Jeremy Lewis: 14:48

By the end of the conversation I said so how will you proceed? And they said you know what? I've seen one already. I've met you. I know I've got one more in the diary, but I've already decided I'm going to work with you. And they hadn't even seen their third person. So that can happen. And that wouldn't happen if you didn't ask them what's going to happen. So what happens next? Essentially, when will you know? Do you know? And if not, when do you know? And if you do, fantastic, I'm delighted to work with you.

Garry Schleifer: 15:13

You know I'm laughing mostly because that's exactly what I do. I'm always making sure that I leave the ball. I like to say I leave the ball in my court. So and when will you let me know? Like, would you let me know all the things you said when you let me know? And then what can I follow up if I haven't heard from you by this date. Asking permission, all that sort of thing? You know it's funny. I also laughing about ABC. So salespeople always say always be closing, and what I'm hearing is always be coaching.

Jeremy Lewis: 15:43

Yeah, very nice.

Jeremy Lewis: 15:48

Chemistry is a coaching conversation. It is a sales conversation, but it's a sales conversation with a coaching mindset, with lots of coaching questions, lots of invitation, like you say, lots of permission, lots of testing out and seeing is this person right for me, am I right for them? If it is, we'll probably do business.

Garry Schleifer: 16:05

Yeah, exactly, I love it. That's how I always operate too. It's like in the new sales is actually relationship building. It's developing relationships and you get to determine whether or not this is a relationship you want to have with this person. Which brings me to the next question is so how do you say no if you don't think you're the right coach for this client, this potential client?

Jeremy Lewis: 16:32

And that's a great question too, and one that I honestly still struggle with. I again, I recall being on a call this was last year maybe and I am listening to the potential client telling me everything about themselves and I'm just thinking, oh this will be tricky, this will be a tricky relationship to enter for me. I'm not feeling the chemistry, I'm not feeling it click, and yet somewhere inside I was wanting to close that business for the sake of closing the business. And that's the tension.

Jeremy Lewis: 17:00

You know, I remember being a novice coach and just getting started and being really quite petrified of having the bravery and the courage to say you know, will we do business together or what's going to happen next, how do you want to proceed? And just kind of finishing the call and hoping that they might come back. You know, and I've moved so far towards wanting to close everything. I think, I don't know, maybe it's just the experience. I now find it very, very difficult to actually and sorry to finish the story that that person hung up on me, she, they, actually she, it was a she. She was right in the sweet spot, right in the sweet spot, you know, but it just it wasn't working. It didn't feel right and she said, look, I've really got to go now and just hung up and I thought, well, she's probably not coming back then.

Garry Schleifer: 17:47

Okay. I was kind of silently received, silently relieved.

Jeremy Lewis: 17:51

I was kind of silently relieved. However, I then reflected, and part of my reflective practice with my supervisor, was what was going on there for me, why was I trying to close that business when I could feel that I didn't want it? And I was relieved when she hung up and thought, well, she's not coming back and that's all all the well, that ends well. So I'm not answering your question. I'm skirting around the subject. I'm a patient guy, I'm a coach, I'm good at waiting. That presence of mind and surety of who I am as a coach and who I want to work with, and the fact that you're assessing whether they are right for you as well as you are right for them, is what gives you the courage to say I don't think this is going to work, or I might not be the right coach for you, and so that requires a lot of practice, especially if you're a self-employed coach and if you don't do coaching, you don't feed the kids and all that stuff.

Jeremy Lewis: 18:50

So it's very, very difficult but I think the answer is you know. Right at the start we said what are the most important things to know. One is who your ideal client is, and two is who you are, how you can help, who you are as a coach, what your offer is, and if those things match up, it's going to be a yes. And if they don't, having the the courage to say not for me, um, and I think there are nice words to say that I don't think I'm the right coach for you, but here, luckily is, you know, is a gentle way to say that, I think how long have you been coaching?

Jeremy Lewis: 19:25

I've been coaching for probably nearly 15 years now, something like that, and have you felt a need or actually said no? What a great, great question and a great challenge. I say I can, there would be less. I could easily count them on one hand. I suspect it's like two.

Garry Schleifer: 19:45

Yeah yeah. It's pretty amazing that by the time we get to have a chemistry call with a client, all of that pre-work is done. They know mostly what coaching is and what it's not. They've kind of figured out who they want as a coach because they're drawn by your unique value proposition marketing, that sort of thing. So you're kind of like 99% there. This is kind of just a little icing on the cake dance that the two of you have to make for that final fit. I'll tell you I've had some that I wish I hadn't taken.

Jeremy Lewis: 20:18

I was going to say that, yeah that's nice to hear.

Garry Schleifer: 20:22

Well you find out afterwards, right, like some tire kickers or you know, they said they knew what coaching was but then they got into coaching. It's like, okay, what are we talking about today? And I'm like, huh, yeah, yeah, back at you, client, what are we talking about today? Well, you're supposed to teach me, right? I'm like no, that was never, you know. And sometimes that comes out of because I'm given clients through the organizations I work with. So I'm one of three coaches put up on a panel for them to choose, and they read my bio, our bios, and then they choose one. You get them and I don't even know how I'd go about saying no. So I work with my supervisor. I was in a group supervision program or talk to my peers and say, okay, I'm experiencing this, like you said about supervision. That's why I just I I'm so glad to talk to somebody who has that also, that lens of supervision. So thank you for that.

Jeremy Lewis: 21:20

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer: 21:21

Nobody wants to say no, and I don't think it's a scarcity thing. It's really about we want to keep, we just want to be coaching all the time I do. Yeah, my, my, my 92 year old mother says to me once in a while it's like she's gotten it now, but she's, she'd say so when are you going to retire? Because my one sister is younger than me and she's already retired. She was a banker and I say, but I'd have to be working in order to retire. And I'm not working, I'm loving right. So you know, I'm coaching, maybe that's a better word. I'm coaching, I'm not working. I pretty much figure I will do it until I can't.

Jeremy Lewis: 21:56

Yeah, absolutely Right.

Jeremy Lewis: 21:58

Not because I don't want to, so yeah that's right and I agree we don't want to say no. And you're right in that if your pipeline's working, you should be being fed people that are 90% there, and it's just about making that connection, but realizing that it's not just a rapport building session. There's a commercial transaction at play as well. So ask for the business, ask what's getting in the way, ask what would need to be in place for you to say yes. Whatever it is that you need to, just just stick to the stick to the question. Stick to the exam question, which is do we want to work together? Yeah?

Garry Schleifer: 22:36

llik that, stick to the exam question the reason we're here. No, that's great, that's all great, you know. I have to say that article really was presented at a good time and a great refresher for me and, I'm hoping, for a lot of our readers as well. So thank you very much for doing that now. So we've talked, you've written, we've talked. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation?

Jeremy Lewis: 23:01

Oh well, first I'd love them to to try it out if they haven't got the structure to their process. Try out those five steps because they really are a game changer. I think I put my statistics in the article and I properly researched my statistics. I went through for years looking at the number of sessions I'd had and how many turned into real business. And I was turning. I was winning about one in every two and now it's close to 90%, I would say, of the chemistry sessions that come in. So there's something there that works for me. It doesn't necessarily work for everyone, but give it a go.

Jeremy Lewis: 23:33

But my real passion is coaching, supervision, and my website, growthecoachcom, has a little button that you can press to have a complimentary review of your practice. So by answering a few reflective questions about what supervision might mean for you, what sort of things you're looking for, I'll turn around a sort of one pager of this is what you said and here's some recommendations. And if people want a little complimentary session with me, then they can book that in as well Once they've done the questionnaire. Now, full disclosure.

Jeremy Lewis: 24:04

I'm a researcher, so that's helping me understand what people are looking for. So that's helping me understand what people are looking for, and what I like to do when I do start working with people is look at whether we're meeting the expectations that they had when they first set out. So it's kind of like a pre-qualification questionnaire, which is another thing that says is this person ready to work with me? Well, if they're prepared to fill in the questions and they want to have a meeting, then that's a pretty good feeder into a potential chemistry conversation from a supervision practice. Having said that, it's a genuine offer of. If you'd like a complimentary review of your practice, just click the button and answer a few questions.

Garry Schleifer: 24:39

Growthecoach. com. Growthecoach. com, and is there also a place there to reach you, or what's the best way to reach you?

Jeremy Lewis: 24:46

And that's the best way to reach me I would say. There is a contact form on there as well, and there's a live chat on there. If I'm online, there's a live chat function too.

Garry Schleifer: 24:53

So wow, I could sit here in a break and have a chat with you. That'd be great. I won't do that to you. Thank you so much, Jeremy. Thank you very much for writing the article and for for uh speaking with me today. Very, very insightful, great reminders. ABC - always be coaching and closing. It's ABC squared. How's that?

Jeremy Lewis: 25:16

Oh, fantastic, we should use that.

Garry Schleifer: 25:18

I'm going to use that. Thank Jeremy . Oh, my goodness, thank you so much.

Jeremy Lewis: 25:24

Thank you for inviting me on.

Garry Schleifer: 25:26

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe, as you did today, via your favorite podcast app. If you're not a subscriber, you can sign up for your free digital issue of choice Magazine by going to choice-online. com and clicking the Sign Up Now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thanks again, Jeremy. Thank you.