choice Magazine

Meet the Author Series ~ Cheryl Procter-Rogers: Disrupting the Disruptors

October 12, 2021 Garry Schleifer
choice Magazine
Meet the Author Series ~ Cheryl Procter-Rogers: Disrupting the Disruptors
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we talk with Cheryl Procter-Rogers about her article Disrupting the Disruptors...A Controversial look at AI, ROI and blurred lines.

With more than 37 years-experience in the public relations and business arena, Cheryl Procter-Rogers, APR, Fellow PRSA, is currently a PR Strategist and Executive Coach, A Step Ahead PR Consulting and Coaching, a global consulting practice.  She counsels clients in the areas of crisis communications, strategic planning, business strategy, special events, internal communications and media relations strategy.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cherylprocterrogers/

Speaker 1:

I'm Gary Schleifer. And this is beyond the page, brought to you by choice the magazine and professional coaching, the ultimate resource for professional coaches in this wonderful arena of professional coaching. We're more than just magazine choices, a community for people who use coaching in their work or personal lives. We've been building our strong, passionate following in a coaching industry for almost 20 years. In today's episode, I talk with coach consultant and leader, Cheryl Proctor Rogers about her article in choice magazine, entitled disrupting the disruptors, a controversial look at AI ROI and blurred lines. I'm I love this article a little bit more about Cheryl. Cheryl is an MCC and APR and award-winning public relations and business strategist, and currently serves as an executive coach and associate director for earns and Young's America's coaching practice. She draws on her 40 plus years of experience as an executive for DEPA university home box office and Nielsen marketing research. As a consultant coach, she has implemented strategies for Coca-Cola Nisan, all state McDonald's and Magellan corporation. Welcome share. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for the invitation and the opportunity to have an amazing conversation about something I'm passionate about.

Speaker 1:

Well, and now just let the viewing audience know. So this is the issue that Cheryl leads the, uh, feature section in the disruption issue. So, um, oh my goodness. Like I, when I first saw the topic and I thought how, like, of course we see the article ahead of time and I saw the, the topic and I'm like the title. And I'm like, what, how is she possibly gonna merge these things three things together? And then it happened. And it was just like, oh my goodness, sh that was amazing. So what made you go down this path?

Speaker 2:

Well, I thought about, you know, some of the things that are central to, to my life, um, and my life as a coach, and like to think that the only thing worse than a bad plan, Gary is no plan. And I used this, seeing that, um, mantra everywhere I went and after a while, I started to learn more about harmful nation bias. And so I started to create a new rally and cry, avoid confirmation bias. You know, that's when you just really just focus on the things in the world that align with your comfort zone. Right. Um, and so I say, I think about five years ago, um, I started really, um, answering the question a lot differently. And question I was often asked was how do you do all of these things and do them so well? And so the answer really was, um, what you're seeing sometimes is plan B, C and D. And so I have always believe that having a contingency plan and doing some scenario planning so that, you know, what the contingencies are is so important. So I just a thought about that as we were talking about the whole idea of disruption and how I believe that it's important to have a plan, Um, for your, especially for your career and to avoid confirmation bias, being not open to new ideas in emerging trends. Yeah. And, and then finally, to have a, a contingency plan to do some scenario planning, because Gary, you know, when COVID hit, a lot of our coaches found themselves on a very, that that speed bump was not really a speed bump. A

Speaker 1:

Lot of them, oh, man

Speaker 2:

Were at a halt. And I do believe some of those critical factors, um, were in play

Speaker 1:

Well, uh, before we go any further, I, I realize we should probably, um, as I was frantically looking for the section in the article call to just define where we're starting from with confirmation bias, and that is, uh, is confirmation bias. This is from your article, but confirmation bias means screening out information. We might not agree with only reading material, attending events, joining organizations, or, or hiring employees that match our own backgrounds, experiences, and beliefs. And it's so interesting how that sh you know, when you're all, and you've been rallying this cry for a long time about it. And I, I only recently, um, and thank you to you because for repetition is what do they say re petition is? The mother of retention is, is that I started to see, like, of course, um, the editorial board remember. So Cheryl, by the way, uh, listeners is also on our editorial board, fabulous writer, fabulous coach, fabulous HR person. And of course, then she's on her editorial board. No surprise

Speaker 2:

PR PR not HR.

Speaker 1:

Oh, sorry. Did I say HR? Yes. Totally not. No PR public relations. In fact, she's been, uh, that longer than she's been a coach, right. Or close they're 50, 50 these days. And, and, uh, and I've noticed that systems have confirmation bias or I've, uh, it's built to support confirmation bias, like Facebook and LinkedIn. I, I actually did a game or a, like, I, I watched it. And when, you know, it suggests, oh, people you might know, might know, I go across and it's like white person, white person, white person, white person, white. And I'm like, I've really created this. I took a responsibility to that. It's only doing the algorithm based on what I was already doing. Right. So I had to start thinking differently in order to track all kinds of people.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you so much for that particular part. Um, I'm gonna, I know you have a wealth of knowledge, so I'm not gonna stick directly to the article, like wander a little bit, you know, cuz you're brilliant. I love

Speaker 2:

That

Speaker 1:

In the face of so much change. Like how do I build confidence of the coach when I don't know what I don't know, like we've he at the wall, like you said, but now we're like, what's next? Ah,

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, Gary, you just gave me a great, great segue in one word, der, If you, if you are having a and you look around the table and everyone looks like you and has the same, um, backgrounds and experiences you, next time you have that dinner party diversified. Um, if you're finding that you're always, um, attending certain events or connecting with certain communities that give you that sense of comfort, diversify, Diversify, what you're, what you're immersed in, in your everyday life. And particularly in your profession, I say to, um, remain current because you never know what you don't know. So you want to be a part of a larger community that can inform, um, your perspective, your knowledge, it, and even point out some skills and strengths you might need to develop, but you're not going, you're not gonna experience any of that. If you remain siloed, if you remain in that comfort zone. So in a word diversify your life,

Speaker 1:

That is absolutely the easiest thing to remember. Diversify. I, I know that in the last year and a half, the one way that I brought diversification into my life was to be a volunteer at the international coaching Federation. I was on a special committee for social justice and coaching education. And oh my goodness. It was, if you don't know how to diversify, which can also be like, how do you get started? And that sort of thing. I mean, some ways are obvious like Facebook and I, that sort of thing, get yourself thrown into it. So you put your hand up and volunteer into something that's outside your comfort zone like that. I was like, what do I know about that? Why are they choosing me? Well, I, in the end I figured out why they were choosing me to be in that, in that group. And so, you know, it was awesome. I, I still think that that was a, a pivotal point in my diversification education, if you will. Uh, diversity and diversification, I think they both came up. So it was brilliant. So there's, there's a suggestion right there. There's your, there's a, a big old dinner party when you've got a global, a group of global coaches or whatever it is, your profession, should it be, you know, PR or whatever. So yeah. Thank you for that pointing. That's awesome.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I agree. And so, Gary, I don't know what it was like for you. Um, you may know that I serve as an at large board member on the global enterprise board for ice CF. Um, and many times, even when I was president of the Chicago chapter of ICF, I would ask, you know, um, members, would you be interested in voluntary and some would, yes. What do you want me to do? And then there were others who would say, well, I'm not quite sure if I can contribute significantly. I'm not sure, um, what the commitment will be. And I'm just wondering when you were making the decision to volunteer in such a role, what were your, your thoughts, um, about the contribution you would make?

Speaker 1:

Well, that was the question I love how you turn this around. You PR person, you you're so good at this. Um, but seriously it was, it was what can I contribute? So we're talking about, uh, social justice. We're talking about, uh, fairness, equity. Um, we're talking about, uh, DEI, all these things that I'm, I wasn't, and I still don't claim to be fully educated. Obviously it's an ongoing learning, but I, I literally said, well, I'm a white man of privilege. How can I contribute? And there were some people who didn't that kind of agreed with me that were, uh, people of color. And then we just got into the conversation and they started to share the stories. And I started to, I, I went in volunteering, putting my hand up and said, you know, I'm in, how can I help? And then I kept saying, so why am I here to myself more than anything? And then I started to realize I'm a channel for other people like me, that might only listen to me. So I found my place.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

Right. So I found my place and because I'm, uh, I'm an ally. Oh. And that's something I learned from Perry Ru and his, uh, rising awareness, uh, when I went to that last year is allyship and that's come up a lot since, but I, I remember that from his, uh, from his, uh, conference, his virtual conference last year. So yeah. That's how I got into that one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And, and I, what I like most about what you said is you really did walk into the unknown and that's what we mean by con you know, avoiding confirmation bias is walking into the unknown, being ready to disrupt your, your life only for a moment. Yeah. And to find comfort in, in the new learn in the new connections. Um, and it takes a bit of courage. Thank you for that.

Speaker 1:

Yep. It does.

Speaker 2:

And, you know, I don't know why I was always daring and courageous. Um, I'm, I'm sure it has a lot to do with how I, I was raised. I feel that if others can really talk into the story that you just gave and the story that is pretty much my story of always seeking opportunity, your teeths to learn and to grow, um, you'll find yourself as you said. And I love that. Um, I'm not an expert in everything very, but I have immersed myself in, so I've diversified my life and just, and been my own disruptor enough that I, I can connect with others on some level on a variety of things, which is what we wanna do in coaching. Isn't it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, and that's a great point too, is that in order to be, uh, avoid confirmation bias, it's to know a bit more about what others are interested in and you're the poster child for that HR, why do I keep saying HR PR and coaching? I mean, to, I would think on the outside two totally different worlds, but I'm sure that you can see a lot of connection and, and so, you know, look at you, you just, I just can't wait to hear what's next.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

For sure.

Speaker 1:

Well, you said something a little earlier about, um, remaining current on merging trends in, in coaching. Uh, what's the easiest way in your mind to, for a person to do that?

Speaker 2:

Well, shameless plug.

Speaker 1:

Yes. Go ahead.

Speaker 2:

Have a, have a subscription to choice

Speaker 1:

Shameless. Self-promotion people choice the magazine of professional coaching. There we go. Very true. Very true. Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Um, and, you know, have a mentor and understand that you can have peer mentors as well, ask them what they're reading and read the sing, um, ask them what their, or, you know, what organizations they're members of, of I'm a, a member of the international coaching Federation ICF, because it aligns with my values. It is an organization that's leading in the profession. And so I wanna be a part of that. Um, and discover that communities that will inform your thinking and challenge your thinking and assumptions. I think it's important that you have a variety of materials that you're reading and on now that everything is online, you know, think about scheduling time to read different information. Um, for instance, when, um, I was invited to serve on choice, um, choices, editorial board, I immediately, um, went back to, um, the, the internet to see what publishing organizations, um, I should be a part of. And, um, and what, um, newsletters, I should now be reading to inform my thinking and to broaden my thinking. So again, no ever satisfied with what I know, because I know that there is something that, you know, and I don't even know what I don't know. So until I step outside of my comfort zone and do that, that, that, um, that research I'm never gonna know. So in, in order to keep up with the trends, yes, there is so much information yeah. Available to us, um, to be discerning and really come up with your own reading list. Something that you're gonna read on a daily basis, a weekly basis, a monthly basis, a quarterly basis, so that you are gathering information that can, um, you know, just keep, keep you, uh, keep you up to date to the trends. Um, and remember, um, I, I like to say that you wanna think more broadly, so not only reading about the coaching could community, if you're a coach, but thinking more broadly about the world what's happening in the world, that's impacting, um, individuals that we might be coaching. I remember reading an article on the significant number of women and children during COVID that were experiencing abuse. Yeah. Well, I didn't have line of sight on that, Gary. Um, and so that trend, horrible trend, um, sent me to do just a little more research on what are the signs

Speaker 1:

Mm.

Speaker 2:

What to look for, perhaps if I'm coaching someone who may be experiencing that kind of, uh, trauma. Right. And, and, and do I have a hot at the ready? You know, it, it just took me an hour or so, but, you know, if I'm only reading things and, and thinking the context of coaching, then I've already what stepped into that

Speaker 1:

Confirmation bias. Yeah, exactly. Well, and, and, you know, you've, I know we talk a lot about the international coaching Federation. There are not only volunteer groups, but there are also special interest groups and different boards. And so you can either go and join and remain current on trends that way, or avoid confirmation bias and pick something you wouldn't normally pick to do or be a part of. Right. So be active. Yeah. Or like, and this is something I didn't realize we both had in common. So I was the president of the Toronto chapter of the international coaching Federation forgotten that we were both. That's kinda, that's great. Yeah, no, that's great. Okay. I do have to, I have to touch on this because it really was like, you touched on a bit of a sacred cow with the international coaching Federation regarding, uh, therapy and coaching in your article. So I knew that, okay. So just without, let's not spend a day, but let's, which we could just tell us briefly a little bit about your thoughts behind, including that and the conversation in your article.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, the, the more, um, coach training I received, the more, I was convinced that there is such, um, a need for these two professions to understand one another. I came to the real, um, because my husband is a therapist, so I would be, you know, studying or reading something and sharing it with him. And he would say, oh, that's such and such and such, you know, and that's what we do in therapy. What are you doing? You know, like, whoa,

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Over your line, get

Speaker 1:

That. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Cross the line here. And, and then he would, he wanted to read it. Right. And he was like, this is based in, you know, and he would have the medical term. And of course I'm coming with none of that. Um, but what I, what I also started sharing with my clients in the intro is coaching is not therapy. I am not a therapist. I have not been trained in that modality. Um, and even if I work, um, I'm gonna take you for where you are and move you forward towards whatever goals you've set for yourself. However, coaching can sometimes feel like therapy Because rarely can you move someone forward without Tapp into their past, and sometimes unpacking it just a bit, but not unpacking it fully because that's not what we do. No, but to inform how we'll move forward. And what I have come to realize is that as more and more, or individuals, the stigma around having a therapist, um, starts to, to shift To something that people are more transparent about. I'm finding that a significant number of my clients have a therapist.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Mine too.

Speaker 2:

And so you've got these two modalities, so I've got this person who has a therapist. I'm also coaching them. I believe that we should be a team.

Speaker 1:

Nope, no question.

Speaker 2:

And so that we are working together in service of this client, but rarely if ever, I think on maybe one occasion. Um, and it was, um, the client who suggested that I actually had a conversation with a person's therapist. And so if I'm gonna have a conversation with a person's therapist, now my business strategy had my PR hat comes on. I need to know at least the basics so that we're talking the same language.

Speaker 1:

Right? Yeah. Great point.

Speaker 2:

And so I believe that if our goal, it depends on where our goal is. I believe that if our goal is really to be in service to our clients, that these two professions must come to that and start to work together. Um, and that we'll see more team. And that in order for me to be able to, um, communicate effectively, there must be some basic understanding from, from the mental health side of the road that I should should know. And I think that's gonna be an, um, have an impact on coach training programs.

Speaker 1:

Mm yeah. That, it goes back to what you were saying about the different resources. Find out about like, pick up a copy of psychology today. See what they're writing about, watch what the, uh, what the, uh, what's the name of the program at coaching and psychology at? I think Penn state, uh, Marty, uh, Seligman and people like that. So know what the other, other side or the bridge side, like there are, uh, some schools, uh, uh, there one, uh, started by Dr. Pat Williams and, uh, it was coaching, uh, for therapists. So it was helping people that had a therapy back background. So what a brilliant way to make that distinction clear and draw the lines? Uh, I remember a friend of mine, uh, he was both a psychologist and a, a coach trained in both and had to be like really clear about the lines. Right. Talk about throwing, jumping right into the fire and had to, you know, that was a lot of work for him, but he loved it. So he, he made it work and a lot of therapists and coaches do make it work. Maybe your husband might be interested in becoming a coach.

Speaker 2:

I've been working on him. He's

Speaker 1:

And that's fine too. Cause we need those people to help us understand what's pure. Yeah. Cause then they would get, then they would have their own confirmation bias, right?

Speaker 2:

Oh yes. He's definitely in the confirmation bias camp right now when it comes to, to mental health and, um, the, the, the most important solution. But, you know, I'll take that back. He's lately. He's been sharing with me how he believes that coaching can really help an individual who may be afraid of their.

Speaker 1:

Mm.

Speaker 2:

Um, and, and so I think of all of those things all the time, Gary, and I do think the lines will continue to blur. I think this firewall, um, will come down and, um, like the firewall came down between public relations and marketing. Oh my gosh, Gary, I could tell you story about the line that was drawn in the, and it was in the sand. Right. But it was a, a line that everyone knew not to cross the marketing folks, didn't cross into the PR and the PR didn't cross into marketing. And then when the whole world shifted and budgets and, and, and the economy, um, created this need for organizations to think differently, You know, there were marketing people coming over and doing some of the public relations work and we were crying. Wow. Get that,

Speaker 1:

Get that.

Speaker 2:

And then what we found is that because of the needs of the client,

Speaker 1:

Oh, heavens forbid we should bring the client into it. Oh

Speaker 2:

My gosh. Um, we start it to do more marketing. And there was even, uh, um, Northwestern university even had a degree offering, integrated marketing communications. And so initially there was this idea that you never crossed this line. Yeah. This is my opinion. This is public relations. And I'm seeing and feeling that same, um, commitment, right. This is coaching and this is therapy, but there's so many aspects to therapy. Yeah. There are so many aspects to coaching. So how can we continue to be this purest when our clients are demanding something more

Speaker 1:

Bang on, well said, Cheryl, it's been a pleasure. What else would you like our audience to take from this article and our conversation?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think it's really important when we talk about scaling Coaching. Um, again, when you, if you thinking about the profession in service to our larger society, our global communities, individuals usually thought coaching, um, either when they experience on trauma got fired from their job, remember coaching was part of outsourcing, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Or it was really for the elite within the organization, You know, either high potentials or, um, C-suite executive this, but the entire organization can benefit from coaching as you have certainly, um, shared with our community through choice. Um, so when we start thinking about how do you bring coaching through, out an organization to individuals? Um, you know, I mean, there are some coaches who charge$35 an hour. I don't know many people in my circle that could afford that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So you have, while we are sleeping, Gary, there are individuals that are, uh, trying to think about the, the woman or man who works in the mail room and how could they benefit and access coaching. And so you've got companies like better up that are really looking to create return on it, investment access, to coaching through all, uh, levels of an organization and to do it with a great deal of, um, support. And guess what they're using. Remember, I talked a little bit about that whole of, um, innovative, um, you know, the way that organizations might, um, think about their business in the future. Yeah. And how, um, this whole idea of disruption, you know, the FedEx of the world, the Ubers of the world. Yeah. Those who have disrupted industries, well, organizations like BetterUp are doing that as well. And anyone who dismisses these organizations that are utilizing technology in a way to, um, really create access.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And that's what they're doing. They're creating access to coaching in a way that honors the standards, the ethics and the, uh, benefits of coaching through, um, you know, assess measurement. I mean, they're, they're, they're, they're doing everything right. You know, I was looking at their website and I pulled some things that says, um, with identity AI, better up finds the right people for coaching and recommends a personalized path to growth.

Speaker 1:

Well, and as you know, I am a better up coach.

Speaker 2:

And so that I've been, yes.

Speaker 1:

Oh. And I, I was skeptical first because I was listening to the, I had my confirmation bias of people pooing it. And I have to say it was because our conver out my conversation with you, that I decided to take a look. And at first I did it as an exercise in knowing what's going on in the industry. And then I started seeing that, and I I'll say I was looking for them to, to fail at something, but to your previous points, they did, they, they have a high standard. Obviously they chose me. So of course they had a high standard. Um, and, uh, uh, I eventually I had to, I had to stop and notice that I was, I was in, I, I, I was, uh, I saw what they were doing. I saw how well they were doing the standards. They were maintaining. And I'm like, well, I don't see anything wrong with being here and off. I went and I've been coaching, oh my goodness. For, I I've now coaching 20 members of better up, they call them members, not clients. And I'm just having a blast. I am Remi reminded myself, cuz I had two or three clients beforehand, now, 20. And I'm reminded of how much I love coaching and better up that kind of scalability, that kind of AI is in there as well. Just keeps both up me and the client kind of on track without controlling the coaching conversation, right? Like it's this foundation.

Speaker 2:

Yes. And so you have other organization and others that are focused on this idea that you can have return on an investment. The organization can now immediately, if this is work. And so when you start about, um, how we view this profession, I go back where I began as a coach, to the members that are listening to this podcast. What's your, are you, are you on a one lane highway or, or one lane road? Are you, or are you going to be on a super highway Where you have lots of opportunities to merge, to, you know, to get on, to get off And to really be in service to the world through coaching. And you cannot do that if you don't have a plan because this idea of, um, individuals having to, um, have these coach to relationships, as they've always been, I hope that this article will help to at least create that new thinking and new perspective that the way things have always been is not things are going to be in the future. And if you are not getting ready, you're gonna be left behind. So, so be ready

Speaker 1:

For

Speaker 2:

The change. So you don't have to get ready, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Disrupt your own life by looking around and, you know, just using the super highway conversation. It's like, that's the other thing too. Let somebody else drive once in a while, be a passenger mentor, coach, you know, you were talking about a peer, um, peer mentor, that kind of thing. What are they seeing or what are you not seeing because you have to drive and focus on the driving. I know lots of driving analogies today, but I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so so much. That's brilliant. And I we've peppered all kinds of actions for our listeners today. And I think that this conversation, well, I know that this conversation has added to my understanding of your thoughts behind writing it. And some more things for me to think about and to look around and maybe I I've offered to volunteer at the international coaching Federation again, but I think I need to be a bit more proactive, so, and get in there. And uh, so thank you so much for, uh, joining us for this beyond the page episode, what's the best way for people to reach you?

Speaker 2:

Oh, they can reach me with my email address at C Proctor Rogers, gmail.com and make sure you're spelling proc with an E R and no D N Rogers. So C Proctor Rogers, gmail.com.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. Well that's thank you so much, Cheryl. Honestly, it's been brilliant conversation. Um, I always love it when I learn some more, not just about you, but also for my own education and awareness. So thank you for, uh, joining us today. Um, that's it for this episode of beyond the page, please sign up to our email list@choiceonline.com to find previous episodes of this or subscribe to your favorite podcast app. See miss any of our informative episodes. If you're interested in getting free digital issue of choice magazine, same place, head on over to choice dash online and click the sign up now button. And within minutes you'll have an, a relatively new issue of choice, uh, for you to read I'm Gary Schleifer, enjoy the journey to that.