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Episode #53 ~ Co-Presencing ~ Demystifying coaching supervision with guest, PoYee Dorrian
In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Master Certified Coach PoYee Dorrian who is the author of an article in our latest issue “Journey to Excellence: Activating Mentor Coaching and Supervision." Her article is entitled: Co-Presencing ~ Demystifying coaching supervision.
While there are many definitions of coaching supervision – including those provided by coaching organizations such as the International Coaching Federation (ICF) and the European Mentoring and Coaching Council (EMCC) – they all encompass the elements of reflective practice. Supervision is a safe space that expands the capacity, development and resourcefulness of coaches and practitioners in their coaching practice for the benefit of their clients and stakeholders.
Specifically in the Americas, a mentor coach may focus primarily on upgrading the coach’s skills from a technical perspective. A coach supervisor, however, explores the various aspects of self-awareness, relational dynamics and systemic dimensions, to help uncover invisible influences that may hinder the quality of their coaching and expressions of those skills.
If the purpose of coaching is to support clients in making improvements and achieving goals, then the purpose of supervision is to widen coaches’ aperture to examine their paradigm and perceive the multi-faceted relationships – the connections and the space within, without, and with the interweaving systems in which they operate.
In this podcast, we will discuss what the difference is between coaching and supervision and how to define supervision.
PoYee is a Master Certified Coach with ICF, an accredited coaching supervisor, and a faculty member with the Coaching Supervision Academy (CSA) and the International Coach Academy (ICA). She brings a holistic and integral approach that has been profoundly shaped by her varying and diverse cultural, educational, and professional experiences.
In her private practice as the Principal Coach in “Journey By PoYee”, she works globally with corporate leaders, top teams, internal and external executive coaches, and team coaches.
PoYee believes in the profundity of reflective conversations that are sacred, meaningful, and heartfelt. It is the foundation for co-visioning a ‘fertile void’ where all parts of us are welcomed and honored - our minds, bodies, and most importantly, hearts – a deep resonance to connect to each other’s humanity.
She believes in the magic behind the mystery of co-creating anew in the unknown with lightness, whole-heartedness, and love.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here: bit.ly/BtP-PoYeeDorrian
Learn more about PoYee here.
Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
In this episode, I talk with PoYee about her article published in our March 2023 issue.
Hi everyone, I'm Garry Schleifer, and this is another episode of Beyond the Page, brought to you by choice, the magazine of professional coaching. We're more than a magazine. It's a community of people who use and share coaching tools, tips, and techniques to add value to their businesses and impact their clients. It's an institution of learning built over the over 20 years, yes, we're in our 21st year of publication, dedicated to improving the lives of coaches and their clients, and of course, making more impact, like I said. In today's episode, I'm speaking with Master Certified Coach PoYee Dorrian, who is the author of an article in our latest issue, Journey to Excellence ~ Activating Mentor Coaching and Coaching Supervision. And her article is entitled: Co-Presencing ~ Demystifying Coaching Supervision. I look forward to that. PoYee is a Master Certified Coach with the International Coaching Federation, an accredited coaching supervisor, and a faculty member with the Coaching Supervision Academy and the International Coaching Academy. She brings a holistic and integral approach to that, that has been profoundly shaped by her varying and diverse cultural, educational and professional experiences. In her private practice as the principal coach in Journey by PoYee, she works globally with global corporate leaders, top teams, internal and external executive coaches and team coaches, so she's got some team coaching supervision in there too I'm sure. PoYee believes in the profundity of reflective conversations that are sacred, meaningful, and heartfelt. It is the foundation for co-visioning a fertile void, that would be the better way to say that, where all parts of us are welcomed and honored. Our minds, bodies, and most importantly, o ur hearts. A deep resonance to connect to each other's humanity. She believes in the magic behind the mystery of co-creating a n ew in the unknown with lightness, w holeheartedness, and love. Welcome PoYee. Thanks so much for joining me today. Well, if anybody has a pedigree about coaching and supervision, it's you. Okay? The credentials, the course a nd on the faculty, no less. So welcome.
PoYee Dorrian:Garry. I'm just so delighted to be here and to hear you share my background, I somehow feel like I'm still at the nascent stage and to be honest, it's always a learning journey for me. So just delighted to be here.
Garry Schleifer:Glad to have you.
PoYee Dorrian:Some of my experiences and just have a conversation with you. This is something that I am very passionate about.
Garry Schleifer:I get that and thank you. We met before you wrote the article, we talked a bit about it and of course it was amazing. What had you decide to write it? And in particular , let's focus on demystifying, like what were you hearing that made you feel that this was an appropriate article that we needed to read?
PoYee Dorrian:Well, Garry, I remembered when we met some months ago, I was trying to get some idea of what are the parameters that would be okay and safe to play with. When you shared with me, hey, these are the questions that the readers might want to know. And I came to think that, oh, in North America, maybe coaching supervision is still having a mystique around it compared to the counterpart like in Europe and in various part of the European countries and Asia too. So I thought demystifying might capture the reader's attention in knowing more about coaching supervision and how it's different in a way that is not very didactic, but more from my personal experience and that's why I decided to write it because it's my own journey. People can't argue that, no, you didn't get it. I don't claim to be an expert, but I claim to have benefited tremendously from this practice.
Garry Schleifer:Wow. Well, I want to tell you, I was rereading it yet again because I read it how many times before it gets published and one of the things that really struck me was about the mention of reflective practice. That came up in your profile as well. What does that mean to you and how does that fit into supervision?
PoYee Dorrian:So the concept and the notion of reflection is something that we probably know, but we have lost through our educational system. Depending on where you are, but I believe the formal educational system emphasizes a lot on maybe retaining the material and then use your analytical mind to analyze and write to it, write to a topic. Reflection has a deeper touch than just simple learning. John Dewey once said that we don't learn from our experience, we learn from reflecting on our experience. I think that's how it went. So it's not the learning that we gain insight and knowledge and wisdom. It's how we slow down and pause and really having the space for us to make sense of what just happened, what is happening now, and what I want to happen in the future that makes a difference. That's why reflection is actually the goal of supervision. Whereas I think for many folks and the practice in North America, coaching has this focus around we need to define a goal. We need to define an objective. If it goes somewhere, it has action and I think that's a pretty conventional thinking or conventional approach to coaching here in North America whereas in supervision, reflection is the goal. What we are together, having a conversation and having this interaction and the spark of each other's wisdom is to reflect and that is the goal. Sometimes it is during reflection that the most important nuggets come through that will change a person and transform a person.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah. So many things come through my head when we talk about reflective practice. Number one, it is in the new core competencies revised at the International Coaching Federation having a coaching presence, I believe it was one. But you also spoke about unlearning in your article, and I'm going to assume that what you're talking about the learning and then the reflective practice, the unlearning is part of that.
PoYee Dorrian:Yes, spot on there, Garry. Part of the unlearning for me on my path to being better at being a reflective practitioner, is to learn not to chase a goal and learn not to be contriving in arriving somewhere. The depth and the connection that happen during a supervisory conversation is what sets it apart from coaching. And the way that it touches people is also what helps practitioners to become more expansive, more the word I'm looking for.
Garry Schleifer:Active?
PoYee Dorrian:It's really opened up a person's aperture. Let's just put it this way. So it's no longer just this singular focus on I have this goal, let's just get there and figure out an action plan. It goes beyond that. It goes deeper under the iceberg, so to speak.
Garry Schleifer:Right.
PoYee Dorrian:Mindset and the paradigm of a person.
Garry Schleifer:Right . Wow, that's very informative. Thank you very much. This is the whole idea of why I do these podcasts is to really go a little bit further into what you're saying, what else you're thinking, what you couldn't get on a page or thought about afterwards. So that's why we do these, that's why we call it Beyond the Page. Well, let's get right into the conversation about supervision, shall we? Maybe we've already answered it, but what makes a difference in coaching supervision or what makes differences in coaching supervision, might be a better way to say it.
PoYee Dorrian:Yeah. In my experience my coming into coaching supervision and also in introducing the concept and sharing this idea with some of the participants going through the program is, I don't know if you've heard of this idea of intranets. So intranets , it's really this metaphor that's used by various religion like Hinduism and and Buddhism. It symbolizes the universe as a web of connections and interdependencies among all that live in it, all its members and also every member is both the manifestation of the whole and also inseparable from the whole. So to me, supervision brings in this greater awareness and expansiveness into being part of and feeling into part of this intranets while we have a conversation and supervision with the other person and therefore, the title says Co - Presencing. We have presencing in ICF. Presencing is about you as a coach grounding yourself and being present to the conversation, to the person in front of you, to the who sitting next to you. Co- presencing is how does a coach, how does a practitioner using that way of presencing, knowing how to connect and relate, so that the other person also receives the same presencing, return that same level of presence and engagement and deepening of their own learning, of their own reflection. So that's why co-presencing to me, it's probably one of the hallmarks of coaching supervision, at least from the training that I received. I believe this is one of the key ingredients in becoming deeper into our own inner wisdom and also having that to invite others to come out from their own inner inner wisdom to bring out their own inner wisdom.
Garry Schleifer:I love it because from what I've heard, I've read this in your article, but the way you said it now. Wow. It's like times 10 magnified. Supervision is from, what I've been learning and what we've published, supervision is not about how the coach coaches as in the core competence, that sort of thing, but it's who they're being and being is being present and then there's co-presencing. So it sounds to me like the supervisor and the coach are meeting at the same place in this co-presencing exercise. Would that be fair to say?
PoYee Dorrian:Yeah, that would be very accurate in capturing the level of energy and the level of, I call it vibrations. Some people may not but it's really the level of relating to one another that is so palpable that it may be hard to describe. It's really, really a false sense . So when we look at how the mirror neurons are placed and the function o f m irror neurons in our bodies, that's how co-presencing happens is that when we are able to tune into o ur own mirror neurons to have that resonance in place, it's like you pluck a violin and then it just vibrates. That sound would also in turn vibrate something else that is within a vicinity because of that vibration. So i t's the idea of the coach itself or himself or herself. O ne, there is that vibration taking place, then the deeper work can happen because that level of vibration can influence and impact the other person who is sitting in front of him or her. So that's part of the unlearning that I mentioned earlier that I went through and is really letting go and it's almost renouncing what I had known about coaching. It is so much beyond and far beyond just talking about goals and objective. It's really about the person, the who, and the person and who has a lot to do with their way in carrying out the ability to ask beautiful questions, to ask powerful questions, to listen very deeply and attentively. So to me, supervision is almost like a foundation to increase and expand the capacity of a coach so that the practitioner can be inflective enough that in the moment that they are aware of, oh, maybe this is something going on that I'm not able to ask this question that I wanted to ask. Or, oh, the question didn't come out the same way that I want it to come out because of whatever happened in the background. So it's really bringing up the awareness of their thinking patterns, just kind of the internal compass of, of how, how they coach and who they are that affects how they coach. So to me it's both the reflective aspect of supervision and also the reflexive aspect.
Garry Schleifer:So many words. It's like , I was reading your bio and I was like , how should we say that one ?
PoYee Dorrian:Yes . I'm still learning how to have economy of words.
Garry Schleifer:Well, your words are very rich and very impactful and I felt that in your article as well. When you gave that lovely example of the violin, to me that is what every aspect of coaching does. You pluck that string on a client's violin per se, let's say, and it vibrates the other ones and in my mind I was picturing all the other people in their lives. You can use that analogy throughout coaching for just about everything and the impact that we do and more so with the addition of supervision. So tell me more about how coaching supervision can enhance a coach's coaching.
PoYee Dorrian:So I believe in the article I gave a few examples of perhaps common or questions that coaches might experience in their coaching journey coaching clients, some of the questions around, Hey, I noticed that my client is putting me on a pedestal and I feel uncomfortable. I kind of like it so, do I need to look at it? So those are just some examples of topics or inquiries that have brought into the space of supervision before. What I've found to be most impactful about supervision is that it offers, I think it also goes back to the three pillars that I talk about, the normative, the formative, and also the restorative. So let's start with restorative. As coaches, you Garry, probably have had experience that you run from meetings to meetings with sessions.
Garry Schleifer:Some days,
PoYee Dorrian:Some days with no space in between to resource yourself. So supervision, I see it as a very intentional effort and a practice and also a commitment, a dedication on the practitioner's part to set aside time to fine tune themselves as an instrument. So if we come back to the violin as a metaphor, if the violin is not tuned or fine tuned regularly, it's going to go out of tune.
Garry Schleifer:Good one .
PoYee Dorrian:It is out of sync with the rest of orchestra. It's not gonna perform up to the level that you want to perform when you play the violin, even though as a soloist. So it's a place for resourcefulness to continue to fine tune ourselves as instruments, and also it's a place of finding deeper for me. It's a place of finding deeper meaning, deeper sense of purpose, and also having that continued relationship with themselves. So it's about building that internal world stronger. It opens up to definition, right? What does it mean stronger? It could be more peace. It could be more tranquility. It could be more wisdom. So however you identify that interior landscape of yours is to help you to nourish and nurture that internal environment. So that when you come out, you get to provide that fertile environment for others, for your clients, for those around you and continue to be at your best.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah. And supervision's all about being your best. Mentor coaching and all of it. So tell us more about the formative.
PoYee Dorrian:Yeah, so the formative. We call it the developmental aspect of it . So it's the educational. One my things easily. For example, a coach might come to me and say, Hey, during this session I said this and this, and I don't think that it landed with the client. I wanted to look at it. So that would be looking from the perspective of the , we call it the intervention, the coaching approaches, ways the conversation shifted or not shifted. So it's really looking at the interaction between the coach and their client. So actually, this is really interesting because as I am describing this particular pillars or the pillar, I noticed that I'm actually describing one of the seven eye models Yeah. One of the e yes in the s even e ye models. Was there an article also about the s even e ye m odel?
Garry Schleifer:There were. There's been many references to the seven eye model.
PoYee Dorrian:So if I kind of thread that through the seven eye models that appeared in the magazine for this issue, it provides an excellent comprehensive way to view beyond the stories, beyond what is apparent to us. So there is a perspective of really looking, not just at myself , but looking at the client, looking at the coach, looking at the relationship, looking at the systemic influence. So from that perspective, the formative part helps a coach to have that expanded view to look into the complexity within which they operate.
Garry Schleifer:Okay , well we can't have two pillars without the third. Let's talk about normative. I like what you said are qualitative. I like that additional, you have different words for them , for people to get their head around. So thank you.
PoYee Dorrian:Yeah, of course. I also am aware that different articles and journals might reference them differently. So I always err on having a little bit more information than not having enough information.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you. Thank you. As a publisher. Thank you.
PoYee Dorrian:So the normative or qualitative part of this particular pillar is to continue to help a practitioner to become aware of their practice. Having that sense ethical awareness, having that ethical sensitivity and really with the intention in supporting a practitioner to become a ethical, mature practitioner in this profession in this field.
Garry Schleifer:You know, when I hear you speak about the normative, formative, or restorative, I picture something like what my clients are going through when they're having to do their professional development plan. It's like, so what are you doing for your health and wellbeing? Oh , restorative. And what are you doing to hone your craft? Oh, taking this particular section and working on that with a mentor coach, and then formative is, or developmental is like, okay, so what other education do I need to bring to the table for the clients that I'm seeing in front of me now. Do I need to learn more about their OD or leadership styles? You know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. So it's almost like a supervision and I never thought of it this way, can be a development plan.
PoYee Dorrian:Yeah, absolutely. Spot on . I think that's a really great connection that you're making as well. And one thing I also want to add is that what I'm noticing, at least the trend that I am creating for myself in terms of my supervision practice, is that for the normative or developmental aspect of this function as a function of supervision, I am beginning to be deeply impacted by the profanity again of creativity. So I've been working quite a bit using creative approaches and using unconventional means that you would see in coaching that goes beyond assessment, that goes beyond having articles or journals for my clients to read, but more stepping into the sphere of play.
Garry Schleifer:No. Stop. We are not supposed to have fun.
PoYee Dorrian:Really giving ourselves permission to relate in lightness and also in goodwill while we are doing serious work together. So it's really having the tension, holding the tension of doing serious work and also having fun and having lightness and doing it together.
Garry Schleifer:That reminds me, I'm doing a series with with Janet Harvey of InviteChange, and we're talking about tensions of presence. So play - seriousness, and then there's what we talked about in the middle, which is a lot of fun. So yeah, what a great analogy. You're really bringing out the great analogies today. I am going to be thinking of the violin for the rest of the day, you know that.
PoYee Dorrian:Well, other instruments too .
Garry Schleifer:Well , speaking of other instruments, what about other instruments?
PoYee Dorrian:Can I ask you something, Garry?
Garry Schleifer:Of course.
PoYee Dorrian:So I wonder if you were an instrument, what instrument would you be and why?
Garry Schleifer:Oh man, I never thought of that. For some reason I'm torn between a drum and something with strings.
PoYee Dorrian:Ah.
Garry Schleifer:A drum because I tend to be very, sometimes not loud verbally, but very loud in my presence. I'm a large man, I'm six two and a drum or a tuba or symbols are things that are like, okay. But then there's the softer side. The side that would be like a flute. I know that's not a string instrument. But could be a violin, could be a cello, a little bit of irreverence. I see it. So I have the best answer. I'm all of those and so much more. I'm an orchestra.
PoYee Dorrian:You are an orchestra. Well then you have a lot of different instruments to play with.
Garry Schleifer:Right? Well, yeah, exactly. And you know, we're talking about not just in this issue, we're talking not just about coaching supervision, we're also talking about mentor coaching. And so as someone who leans a lot in the supervision side, tell me how you feel about the two modalities. Where do they fit in? When should we use them? So many questions.
PoYee Dorrian:I see them as they're on the same level, but different section of the spectrum. Let me see if I can work more . I see them complimenting each other. I see them complimenting each other like I said before, the two modalities, supervision and mentoring. Right? You're referring to mentoring and supervision. To me, supervision forms the foundation to help a coach to go from a tiny cup to a bigger glass and then to a vessel. Mentoring are the things that you put into the container or help support the learning of the things that you put in the container. So if you imagine if we start with just a glass or a cup, there's so much capacity and you are limited by that capacity. No matter how much you put in, at some point you're going to be full to the brim. Whereas supervision allows us to stretch the boundary, to reshape the boundary, to reshape the container that you see yourself as and allow you to put other things or more things or less things into that vessel. So they were absolutely complimenting with each other. They're complimentary to each other. In my practice in mentoring specifically MCC coaches to go through the assessment process, I now emphasize more than ever get supervision and I will offer supervision as well. Because mentoring to me, because it's very laser focused into the eight competencies now, that those are the behavioral expressions of how a coach does coaching during that recorded session. Whereas during mentoring, if I pick up certain areas that I'm curious about, it may not be simply talking about, this is how you are going to ask the questions or this is how you could phrase it, or these are the things that you could also pick up. It goes beyond that. What was interesting, Garry, was that a few of my colleagues who went through MCC mentoring first started with someone else, quite a few of them. They came to me and they said , PoYee, would you be able to offer some supervision? And those colleagues actually was in my supervision groups previously, so they kind of were familiar with the work that I would do with them. And I said, yeah, of course. So what I have experienced is that supervision unlocks where people might be stuck when they are at a certain point of their MCC journey specifically.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah. Wow . Well said. So you're the rockstar of supervising MCCs, right?
PoYee Dorrian:No, not at all.
Garry Schleifer:No, don't you go modest on me now .
PoYee Dorrian:I'm not the rockstar, but I stand behind the power and the mystery and just the magic of supervision.
Garry Schleifer:Oh, well said. I love that. I love that. Well, we're coming to the end of our call, unfortunately, and I have a couple of really big questions. What would you like our audience to do as a result of this wonderful article and this conversation?
PoYee Dorrian:I would love for anyone who is just even tiny bit , you know, maybe 5% curious about supervision, to reach out to me and just have a conversation. I would love to share my experience and just share some insights for people who would like to experience it, who would like to know more about that . I'm here as a coach educator, and I would love to have more practitioners to be benefited from this particular modality.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you. I wouldn't have expected anything less from you than to ask them to get a taste. Where would they reach you? What's the best way?
PoYee Dorrian:The best way is to reach me directly through email. Yeah . I do have a website is called JourneybyPoYee.com. There you can find some information, which is right now currently being updated. So that will give you a sense of how I work and some of my philosophies in coaching and supervision. And the best way really is to contact me directly through email which is poyee@poyeedorrian.com
Garry Schleifer:poyee@poyeedorrian.com. Thank you.
PoYee Dorrian:Thank you.
Garry Schleifer:Perfect. Perfect. This has been amazing. Thank you so much. My experience of supervision is like wonderful. And I will be one of the first people to expand my use of supervision by contacting you for a taste test.
PoYee Dorrian:Thank you . Looking forward to it, Garry.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah , me too.
PoYee Dorrian:We will have fun too.
Garry Schleifer:I want to say that, especially in light of the conversation about co- presencing, I knew that the supervisor and the coach they really do, go back to the kind of the web conversation, but they're at this level of supporting each other and like really being there for each other in such a non-judgmental, open way tha I want toexperience that as well with you because I think I've had a bit of that, but not enough. So I'm hungry.
PoYee Dorrian:Yay.
Garry Schleifer:Thanks again. Thanks again, PoYee. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app. We are highly downloaded on Apple and Spotify as well as on our own website. Don't forget to sign up for your free digital issue of choice Magazine when you go to our website, choice-online .com , and click the signup now button. I'm Garry Schleifer, enjoy your journey of mastery. Thanks PoYee.
PoYee Dorrian:Thank you, Garry.