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choice Magazine
choice Magazine
Episode #88 ~ Breaking Money Taboos: Empowering Financial Conversations in Coaching and Career Development with guest, Julie Vander Meulen
Unlock the secrets to confidently discussing money in your career and personal development journey, as Julie Vander Meulen, a leading voice for ambitious women in the industry, joins me, Garry Schleifer, for a candid conversation. Together, we dismantle the money taboos so prevalent in the coaching world, revealing why these essential talks are often shrouded in silence. As we navigate the cultural unease surrounding financial discussions and the specific challenges women face in asserting their worth. Our dialogue promises to empower you with the tools needed to have honest, transformative conversations about success and compensation.
Dive into our exchange as I share my personal tactics for addressing coaching fees with a blend of wit and candid clarity, aiming to normalize this often awkward topic. Julie and I dissect the fears and stereotypes that women confront in financial negotiations, highlighting the consequences of not pursuing fair pay. We also stress the significance of both market research and gut feeling in achieving equitable compensation, sharing stories that illustrate the profound impact of these strategies on coaching outcomes and personal value.
Tune in for an episode that not only shines a light on the unspoken but also equips you to tackle these conversations with confidence and ease.
Watch the full interview by clicking here
Find the full article here: https://bit.ly/JVMeuler
Learn more about Julie Vander Meulen here.
Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
In this episode, I talk with Julie Vander Meulen about her article published in our March 2024 issue.
Welcome to the Choice Magazine podcast, Beyond the Page. choice, the magazine of professional coaching, is your go-to source for expert insights and in-depth features from the world of professional coaching. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm thrilled to have you listening to us today. In each episode, we go beyond the page, go figure, of articles published in recent issues of choice Magazine and dive deeper into some of the most recent and relevant topics impacting the world of professional coaching, exploring the content, interviewing the talented minds behind the articles and uncovering the stories that make an impact. choice is more than just a magazine. For over 21 years, we've built a community of like-minded people who create, use and share coaching tools, tips and techniques to add value to their businesses, of course, to impact their clients. In today's episode, I'm speaking with personal development, career coach and author, Julie Vande r Meulen, who's the author of an article in our latest issue "Unspeakables Uncomfortable Topics we Avoid that Impact Coaching Outcomes. Her article is entitled Money Talks Money's Power and Sensitivity in Coaching Ambitious.
Garry Schleifer:A little bit about Julie. She's the founder of Own your Own Life, I'm sure that calls to a lot of people and is a trailblazer in personal development, career coaching and digital branding for ambitious women. With a blend of entrepreneurial flair and heartfelt authenticity, she empowers women to harness their narratives, ensuring that they shine in the digital age. Julie, thank you so much for joining me today. I am so excited to talk about this article and talk to you so well,
Julie Vander Meulen:Hi Garry. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Garry Schleifer:And thank you so much for writing this article. Talk about a big elephant in the room, unspeakable. So I was normally going to ask, like, why did you write this article?, but I can tell by your background that this is right up your alley. But is there anything else that you want to say that called you to write it at this time?
Julie Vander Meulen:I think it just I didn't do that on purpose actually. So originally I was not that interested in coaching women about money. It's not what I do, I just coach ambitious women in general. But it so happens that, as I was coaching every single one of them, there's always something about money. T hey will always slip something like oh, I'm not that great with money, or oh, I don't like to talk about that, or I do have an issue with asking what I'm worth, these kinds of things, and so that's how I got into the whole money subject and that's how I wrote about it.
Garry Schleifer:Well, and I'm kind of going to put you on the spot, but not because one of the unspeakables is having a conversation about money and women with a guy. So what's coming up for you now and during this conversation I don't want you to resist holding back because I'm the cis white male privileged guy thing. I really want you to let all the guns loose for our audience to really be clear. So you have full permission to bring up the guy thing if you need to, right?
Julie Vander Meulen:Thank you, and I will say that I'll be honest, I did have a thought about that, the self-conscious thing, that I was like I'm only talking about women. Does that apply to men? Does that apply to however you identify? And then I was like, okay, I will just focus on what it is that I'm doing and if we need to talk about it, we'll talk about it.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, exactly, and you know what. I know this, so it's not like it's a surprise to guys. But, well, we'll talk more about it. We'll circle back and see if we handled this, if we're good. So what are some common miscellaneous people have about money and how do you handle them in your coaching?
Julie Vander Meulen:So I think in general, maybe not every society, I can't speak for the whole world, I don't know how every culture thinks about money, but where I come from. So I come from Europe and Belgium, but I find in the United States as well, where I'm staying right now, most people feel quite uncomfortable around money. So I think here in the United States it's a bit more acceptable to talk about how much you earn, and you know, talking about success in that way. But even so, I think talking about money is always related to success, and so even in cultures where it's okay to talk about money, it's okay to talk about it when it's going well, and so you know, talking about your taxes is not that sexy a topic so most people don't talk about it, but it's important, right? It's something that is really important. So it doesn't matter how much you earn. f you're taxed a lot maybe you don't have as much as you thought. So it's an important conversation. So there's a lot of resistance towards that as well. But then, especially about debt, which a lot of people have. That's not a topic that most people are willing to talk about. So I think that's one of the big misconceptions about money would be that it's a taboo and in order to talk about it, it has to be going great.
Julie Vander Meulen:When I think to me at least, but maybe that's because I'm a coach the value of it is speaking about it when it's not going well and trying to uncover why it's not going well, right. So that would be one main thing for people in general. Now, I think with women there are different layers of how, and I'm going to include myself in that because I'm also working through that, we have a lot of ideas. Even when we're trying to be very ambitious and out there and so on, we are still, most of us, trying to be good girls, whether we know it or not, and so being a good girl means being kind of the caretaker, not asking for too much, being a bit of a people pleaser, all these types of things. That doesn't go too well with demanding for your worth and saying you know I'm worth that much and these are my boundaries, and these types of things.
Julie Vander Meulen:So I think that there's something there and I would say maybe one more thing is, which maybe is the part that saddens me the most and why I'm probably talking about this the most is, most women think they're not good with money, which to me is something I find problematic because it's just a skill and I coach ambitious women, so these women are bad asses in so many ways. They're used to having these amazing skills and incredible things. So it's puzzling to me to think, oh, you're not good with money. What does that mean? Like you could be good with money. Plus, it's important. You can't really be successful if you don't have money. And I'm not saying that in a success driven thing, I'm just saying if you don't earn a good living, you can't take care of yourself, you can't take care of your family, you will be stressed, all these types of things. So I think these are the most important ones that I've seen my coach ing.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, Wow, no kidding. Well, as far as women knowing about money, even my sister, she handles money quite well. But culturally, though, back to your point about culturally and your question. So I grew up in Canada, with German parents, immigrants, first generation Canadian, and it was taboo culturally to speak about money whether you were making it or not. A lot of organizations, they don't want you to talk about money and what people make because they don't want to be called out and that's why there are organization is like, what's the called Glassdoor? Glassdoor, that talks about what people make in money. So, yeah, thank you very much for that. So what do you do? How do you help women redefine the way they are, relationship with money through your coaching?
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah, there are many ways. I think the easiest way is what we kind of always do in coaching is just asking questions that are framed differently. So I will hear, like I said, most women who come to me they don't come with a money issue, they come with other things. Well, I hear that little thing that they just said about money and I just question them like, can we just go back?
Garry Schleifer:Good for you.
Julie Vander Meulen:Well, I just heard that little thing that you just say why. What do you mean by that? So I think just pointing it out, like we do in coaching, helps a lot, just that. I think people in general are smart, but the specific niche that I have, it's women who are very self-aware and who want to grow, like they're in that space. So if I ask them a question, immediately they will try to unpack their own thoughts and so on. So I think just that is just enough in itself. Then I think the playfulness, being very playful about it, just smiling. Oftentimes they will tell me something. They're the ambitious type which they will deliver a perfect speech and then I'll just stand there and I will smile because I know that it's my own.
Julie Vander Meulen:And so I'm just like, hmm, interesting. And then they will laugh and be like, okay, let me try this again and tell the truth.
Garry Schleifer:Oh wow, that's great.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah, I think a lot of times it's just as easy as that, but then sometimes, of course, you need more than that, because some people are more resistant, but also all of us. There are layers to what we're capable and willing to uncover about ourselves, and I think then, when I need to go deeper, I have some specific tools that I use. I think the most important one is me showing my own vulnerability a bit like I'm doing right now. Where I don't just make it about them, I also bring it back to me and saying, hey, that's an issue for me too. Like I'm in the exact same thing where constantly, I will wonder. On a good day, I'm like, no, I totally deserve this. But if I'm on a bad day, I start thinking is my rate okay?
Julie Vander Meulen:That's just the reality of it, and I think it's not just women, but I think a lot of women think like that, and so, yeah, me too.
Garry Schleifer:I'm going through this right now as I redo my landing page for coaching and what am I charging and value versus and all that. So yeah, I hear that, but I agree it happens with more women. I mean you even highlighted a few topics. I can't resist talking about this. You talked about societal shadows and money assertive women are given labels like greedy, bossy or materialistic and I'm like, yeah, that doesn't help. So it's no surprise when you said they don't want to talk about money or they feel bad about it. All that sort of stuff.
Garry Schleifer:So, thank you for pointing that out in the article as well.
Julie Vander Meulen:Oh, of course. I think the worst part of it is, I mean, for me maybe it's not the worst part, because societal things are reality as well and we need to challenge them. But in my line of work, what I'm interested in is the individual and how they perceive themselves. I'm a bit sad when I see all these beliefs are internalized. It's not just a judgment from society. It's that we, if I may conclude myself, and I can include you too, we in general have these thoughts about ourselves that am I abeing being too pushy.
Julie Vander Meulen:am I being too much? All these types of judgments towards ourselves. When it's Am just, it seems, when I'm being rational about it, it seems like a society that pays you for your value, to just rationally assess what is my worth, what am I offering and what is the price out there. But yeah, most women don't do that.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, no kidding. So now that you know this, have you altered your agreements or your intro with coaching ambitious women to say something about money, or do you just to let it flow, l ike come up naturally?
Julie Vander Meulen:That's a great question. I think I do a little bit of both in a sense. The way that I function is, usually women come to me, I have a membership, but before they start the membership they come from what I call a deep dive, and so in that deep dive we uncover their beliefs, their values and stuff like that. It's a longer session, and so in that one I also have the opportunity to talk a little more about myself, who I am, what I offer and stuff like that. And so in that specific framework I will usually talk a little bit about money, because I talk about self-worth.
Julie Vander Meulen:A lot of what I do has to do with these women aligning themselves, so not just being go, go, go the go-getter, but trying to uncover why they're being stuck in somewhere in their lives or why they're feeling fulfilled, and so a lot of the time it has to do with their self-worth. And so I can't talk about self-worth without mentioning a few things, and one of the things is money. So I think that has changed, in the sense that I'm more outspoken about it and saying we don't have to talk about it if you don't want to, but I'm pretty sure it will be helpful to you, and every time it has not happened once that a woman said to me that they don't want to talk about it. They're just saying, oh my god, like I would never have brought this up by myself, but I really need to work on that. So it has changed a little bit.
Garry Schleifer:It goes along with one of the ICF core competencies, I think it's number four, about knowing more about your client or letting the client know what their possibilities are. Yeah, so you've spoke in the article and you've touched on this in our conversation today. Can you tell me more about how you navigate that tension that arises when discussing fees and values with clients? And you can even use yourself, as the example.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah. So I think there are two things to that. There's me and my own value in my fees, and then, especially for business women because I have a lot of those in my coaching sessions how they navigate their own fees and value. So I think for me again, I have a very playful nature.
Garry Schleifer:I get that.
Julie Vander Meulen:So I bring that a lot when I'm coaching and I find that a lot of things that are harder to talk about when you laugh about it and you realize it's just a common thing we share. It's not that big of a deal anymore and so much can come out of that. So, yeah, when I talk about my fees, I have to say that I'm also a bit of a trickster in the fact that I have created my website so that people pay for my fees in advance.
Julie Vander Meulen:Many coaches they have to do that during the coaching session. I don't have to do that.
Julie Vander Meulen:So I'm lucky about that. But I do have the conversation of how much is this going to cost? What is the value? Why do I think that this is worth it? And I think for me, I have a very rational part inside of me and I think a lot of people have that too that if you explain to people why they're paying that price, which is I'm offering this, I will be fully present. You will get that amount of time. I will be reading your coaching survey in advance. I will be there afte you know whatever it is that you're doing.
Julie Vander Meulen:I find that most people, they're willing to purchase whatever you're offering if you just explain to them what it is that you're doing. There's a rational part of us that just does that. And then the second thing is just, I think, just being vulnerable and saying, well, this is me, you can leave it, you know, kind of thing. And I think that's the way that I approach it for me. Now, when it comes to how I coach other women to ask for their own worth is, again I asked for this rationality kind of principle. Say, have you taken a look at? What's the reality of it? So, if you have a job, have you looked at, like you said Glass door? What
Julie Vander Meulen:Most women don't even look at that. They just go to a job interview and they've never looked at how much they should earn, and so they go there and whatever they offer, they feel oh my God, I'm so lucky that I received that and I'm like, well you know yeah.
Garry Schleifer:Oh my goodness. You know I don't want to tell tales out of school, but my mother had an issue with an insurance thing recently and her intuition said that the amount they were offering was not enough. And because I was helping her with the situation, I said, well, how much would you like?
Garry Schleifer:And she told me, and so, figuring there'd be negotiation, I went a little bit higher and we got it and I then, when we heard back that that was happening and she has the check now, I said to her you know, this was your intuition that called this out to say that's not right. So maybe part of it too is not just value, but fairness and equity. Equity, maybe is the thing right. Fairness for my mom, but equity for the people you talk about. That Glassd oor is all about leveling the playing field, because we know women are not paid the same as men for the same as work. Seriously, this is the 21st century. Let's get a grip, people, right?
Julie Vander Meulen:Oh, you know, what's interesting, too, is that, at least the type of women that I'm coaching, they have those beliefs. Like what we're talking about are things that they talk about too. They do believe that they should earn as much as men, and they have all these strong conversations, and yet when the time comes to negotiate their own worth, they're not there yet.
Garry Schleifer:So what's the fear?
Julie Vander Meulen:I think the fear is, I mean, I think there are multiple, but probably one is judgment. How will they be perceived in that moment? And I think in general, it's a scary thing putting your work like that you know in a job wherever.
Julie Vander Meulen:I think it's a scary thing in general to be vulnerable and say, hey, this is what I'm worth. What if you know people shut a door in your face? You know it's never nice. And I think if you already have a lot of self-doubt about, am I worth that or not? then it will be easier to not receive rejection rather than say this is what I'm worth and you know I will be out myself.
Julie Vander Meulen:I think there's something around that. So there's judgment of others and how they will perceive us. Are we demanding? Are we bossy? Are we also thinking organizations? You touched a little bit on that and you know, the fact that people don't want us to know how much we're earning and we can't talk about those types of things. And, yeah, I think there's just a fear of being labeled a specific way that oh, you're just here for the money and we want to be good and so we want to say no, actually we're mission driven, we love contribution. Whatever the day will take the job, because we're just good human beings.
Julie Vander Meulen:And I think there's something there too.
Garry Schleifer:You know, another word that's coming up for me is resentment, and in the context that, should a woman not ask for what she wants and it's so easy and they get what they offer her then there might be some resentment afterwards saying why didn't I ask for more? Right, it's a catch 22. It's a no win scenario, right, but that's the word that came up for me right now.
Julie Vander Meulen:I would say shame too.
Garry Schleifer:Okay.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah, I think in what I see, a lot of women they do feel resentment. There's a lot of built up anger inside and, like you say, I think a lot of women too have this thing. You know how we talk about relationships and we say don't date potential, that type of thing. They're like date the person that you have right now and not who you think they might become. I think it's a bit the same with jobs that a lot of women, maybe men too I don't know, but a lot of women take a job and they think you know, for now this is okay, and then I'll put myself and in three months, I'll get a raise. And then they never do.
Julie Vander Meulen:So I think also a part, that is, we trick ourselves into something like that and to thinking you know, later it will be, and then the shame of having to live with that. Aftewards, in retrospect, you look at yourself again?
Garry Schleifer:Why did I do that? Oh, I'm so bad, you know, and blah, blah, blah, right, yeah, yeah.
Julie Vander Meulen:Plus, if you're I don't know a director of something or a manager, and you have this important title and you're out there in society and everyone is saying, oh wow, you're amazing at this, you're amazing at that, you must be. There are a lot of assumptions. And then if inside of you, you think, yeah, but I'm earning the same salary as I was like three years ago.
Julie Vander Meulen:I had no responsibilities. It's like you kind of cannot even process the title or how well you're doing in general. You start doubting yourself because you don't have the amount of money you deserve. So there's a lot of things inside of it.
Garry Schleifer:A lot of things conflicting. There's one thing you touched on too that came to mind. When I work with my clients, I mine the conversation for conditions of satisfaction. So I'm working with a bunch of people in career advancement, career conversation, right, and what I do is create this list that I hear. And why I say that in this conversation is because if I hear that it's important for the organization that they work for to be one of the cultural norms is equity then it's a testament to the organization if they treat women fairly and then it honors their value of equity and the condition that they're looking for. So it can be used as well and this might be the thing too, and we know as coaches that sometimes if you talk about this as a third entity not you, not me, but that thing right, then sometimes it's easier to have say that thing rather than speak for yourself.
Julie Vander Meulen:That is true. I'll be honest, I've never used that with the idea of like a third party being an organization. I'll usually use the typical thing as what if it was your friend what would you say?
Garry Schleifer:That's the same thing. That's the same. If you were coaching your friend, you're talking to your friend, what would you tell them? Great, so let's bring it home. Well, let's tell yourself the same thing. So what's getting in the way, and then, of course, the coaching just transforms the whole conversation.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah, I see how that works, how the human works. We don't want to see things for ourselves, but then, yeah, we are willing to do so many beautiful things for other people.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, and we have our clients to thank for seeing a lot of the things that we see in ourselves. Like you're saying, being transparent about what's going on for you and you're in the same boat and it doesn't go away. I don't think it would ever go away, right.
Julie Vander Meulen:No, but also I think that, I don't know about you, but how I've seen things evolve for me is like as I grow, I attract women who are more and more like me. So the women that I coach grow with me and I grow with them, and so I think there's always another level now. So I'm not at all who I was a year ago, three years ago, but neither are they.
Garry Schleifer:Right, yeah, they're growing up with you.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah, it's a great process.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, wow, what would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation?
Julie Vander Meulen:I think that for coaches who read this, I would love for them to just think about the topic themselves. So both things. One the part about money. How do they feel about money and how is that coming in the way of it being an unspeakable in their coaching sessions and in being able to coach women or not specifically women, but I'm talking about coach people around money. I think a lot of is our own resistance towards things we are afraid of.
Julie Vander Meulen:So I would say maybe that one thing would be that and the other thing would be, I mean, we know that as coaches but really being vulnerable. If there's one thing I think for me that is the most important in the article for a coach is that part, is that when you're allowing yourself to be vulnerable and you know kind of just witnessing yourself and other people who just tell you their beautiful stories, it's like it changes the whole game, and you don't have to be perfect at it. Many times, even today in this conversation, there are things I'm not sure about or I'm still dealing with, and so on and so forth, but it makes the relationship beautiful and it makes people grow and they see you kind of battling with your own things. So I would say probably vulnerability would be the second thing that I would love coaches to think about a lot and be willing to just chill.
Garry Schleifer:Oh, I agree, and I think we do a pretty good job of that already without. But the one thing to be careful of is to remember that it isn't a bias that affects your conversation with the client. Then we go down that other slippery slope of, well, I'm struggling with this, so how could I help that client? So just being careful around that conversation.
Julie Vander Meulen:That is true, but then there's also the positioning that we have in coaching, where it's not like you're talking to your friend either, so I'm not out there telling them every secret in my life. I will be sharing a specific part to say it's okay feel vulnerable about this, because so do I. So please up and you're okay, wherever you are and not be, you know this happened in my taxes, or?
Garry Schleifer:Giving permission to talk. I get it. Yeah. Wow, Julie. Thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. What's the best way for people to reach you?
Julie Vander Meulen:The easiest way would be to go on my platform, which is you can find it OwnYourLife. a Academy.
Garry Schleifer:So OwnYourLife. Academy. Got it. Awesome, thank you.
Julie Vander Meulen:Thank you so much.
Garry Schleifer:That's it for this episode of Beyond the P age. For more episodes, continue to subscribe to your favorite podcast app. If you love it, please tell your friends, refer us to others. It's the only way we get the message out about coaching and all of the information we offer at choice. If you're not a subscriber, you can sign up for your free digital issue, or scan that, or go to choice- online. com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thanks, Julie.
Julie Vander Meulen:Thank you so much, bye.