%20(73).png)
choice Magazine
choice Magazine
Episode #91 ~ Mastering the Art of Positive Discomfort with Executive Coach David Morelli
Ever feel like your progress is stagnating, whether in your personal life or professional career? Join us as David Morelli, a titan in executive coaching, shares his potent strategy for catalyzing growth: positive discomfort. With David's approach as our compass, we traverse the landscape of the 'Positive Provocateur' coaching style, where nurturing meets challenging, to unlock remarkable transformations. This episode is peppered with compelling narratives from David's rich coaching chronicles, illustrating how a strategic jolt out of the comfort zone can reshape destinies.
This conversation is more than just theory; it's an expedition into the art of provocative questioning and its capacity to unearth profound insights. We delve into how David's bold techniques have recalibrated life paths, repaired relationships, and reignited professional passions. For coaches and those keen on self-improvement alike, embracing the discomfort explored in this dialogue promises a newfound understanding of the delicate dance between support and provocation. It's a journey to the heart of transformation, championed by a master provocateur who exemplifies the courage to inspire change.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here: https://bit.ly/DMorelli_Provocateur
Learn more about David Morelli here.
Find your coaching style by taking the Coaching Style quiz here.
Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
In this episode, I talk with David Morelli about his article published in our March 2024 issue.
Welcome to the choice Magazine podcast Beyond the Page. choice, the magazine of professional coaching, is your go-to source for expert insights and in-depth features from the world of professional coaching. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm thrilled to have you join us today. In each episode, we go beyond the page, go figure, of articles published in choice Magazine and dive deeper into some of the most recent and relevant topics impacting the world of professional coaching, exploring the content, interviewing the talented minds like David's behind the articles and uncovering the stories that make an impact. We're more than just a magazine. For over 21 years, we've built a community of like-minded people who create, use and share coaching tools, tips and techniques to add value to their businesses and, of course, make a difference with their clients.
Garry Schleifer:In today's episode, I'm speaking again, Yay, we have him again, with executive and leadership development coach David Morelli. He's the author of an article in our latest issue "Unspeakables Uncomfortable Topics we Avoid that Impact Coaching Outcomes. His article is entitled Become a Positive Provocateur how Discomfort Can Help your Clients Get the Most From Coaching. David is the co-founder and CEO of Owl Hub Inc and the creator of R-E-S-P-E-C-T, so remember all those letters when you read this article, Coaching Styles Assessment and Training Program with 25 years of executive coaching and leadership development experience. He's a former business school professor in leadership, communication, strategy and entrepreneurship, and he's worked with executives at companies ranging from startups to those on the top Fortune 500 list. He also hosts a number one podcast called Owlcast, with 1.2 million subscribers, and holds an MBA and PhD in Executive Coaching and Leadership from the University of Denver. David, thank you so much for joining us again.
David Morelli:It's so great to be here with you. I absolutely loved our previous conversation and every conversation we have outside of the podcast environment as well.
Garry Schleifer:Yes, and our little joke is that we're competing with shirts today, if you happen to be do ing the visual, but I am winning.
David Morelli:Yeah, you definitely hands down really.
Garry Schleifer:David, in a sense it's no surprise, but I want to ask you what called you to write this particular article.
David Morelli:Well, actually, after our last conversation, I said, oh well, what exciting issues do you have coming up? And then you mentioned the subject of this issue. Yeah, and I was just like, hey, there's actually a coaching style for that called provocateur and a lot of people avoid it. So when I heard your article, or sorry, the issue title, I was like, oh yeah, that's where there's so much aliveness and power and all of this.
David Morelli:So I got inspired and I think I wrote this article like right after our conversation. Took me like four hours. I couldn't think of anything else, I was just like I've got to write this article.
Garry Schleifer:That's great. That's great, I love it, and you alluded to this, but why is it so hard to make people feel uncomfortable as coaches?
David Morelli:You know, I believe that we all get into coaching because we care.
David Morelli:We care deeply about other people. We care deeply about the impact that we're making in the world. We care about, in a way, bringing people into their fullest selves and helping them accomplish whatever it is they're looking to accomplish, or fulfill whatever it is they're looking to fulfill. And in the name of caring so much, we sometimes shy away from that uncomfortable moment. And but that uncomfortable moment is usually where a breakthrough is lying in wait, and that's where the power is. But in order to do that, you've got to, in a way, stretch your style a bit into one of the seven coaching styles called provocateur.
Garry Schleifer:Well, thank you very much for that. It's funny because one of the things I ask writers, and you took this literally, is be provocative in your articles. So you became provocateur.
David Morelli:I love it, yeah, yeah.
David Morelli:In the article I started off with this fundamental question that I think is really important for us each to ask ourselves, which is how often do you make other people uncomfortable? Intentionally, right? How much do we do that intentionally?
David Morelli:Oftentimes we might do it unintentionally and then we apologize for it, or we go right up to that line but we try and like go around it, not really have that difficult conversation or not really call people out in a way that they need to be called out or challenge them in a way they need to be challenged in order for them to have a breakthrough. And so I remember early when I was coaching, I thought it was my job to be nice and I would have these really, I'll call it, friendly conversations as a coach. But I noticed that people weren't really going, wow, that was such an amazing conversation. They were saying like, oh, that was nice or that was pleasant, you know. And somewhere along the way I had somebody challenge me, they were provocateur with me to say, unless you're making people uncomfortable, you're not doing your job.
Garry Schleifer:We had a saying in the certification program, we said coach risking to be fired. Yes, right, absolutely yeah. Push the, push the line.
David Morelli:Yeah and I thought, well, I can't do that because you know, early on I was like but that's our clients, you know. I think early on we think that somehow we just are trying to accumulate clients and not be fired. But the funny thing is, looking back on it, I was fired because I was too nice. I was never fired for being too much like going all in on on a conversation. There was one time, maybe we can explore this a little later, where I had a turning point moment around my ability to go into being a positive provocateur.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, no, that's great. And you know you gave some great examples in there too of like that one client and that was the the best coaching she'd ever had was when you took on your provocateur style. Now you also say in the article you talk about positive discomfort. So tell us a little bit more of that and how coaches can create that for their clients. yeah, there's this um, there's this way that if we're not squirming, we we're not growing. Are you talking about the coach or the client now?
David Morelli:Well, I think both Okay good.
Garry Schleifer:I think that's a really good point. Yeah, yeah.
David Morelli:So there's an assessment that we do around the RESPECT coaching styles where there's one for the coach finds out how frequently they use each of the different styles, and the least used style by coaches is provocateur. The highest one is called confidant. Where it's that I care deeply, you can share anything with me, you can share your frustrations and all that, and I think, relatively speaking, as a collective, we do that well. But provocateur, that positive discomfort, is that you can say something that challenges someone, or you can say something that helps them question themselves or their approach or their assumptions, or to have them rethink, and that's the provocateur style.
David Morelli:That one, being the lowest, that discomfort, that positive discomfort, is a way where it's like it's actually an expression, or should be, of how much we care. Because I care, I'm going to help you see the lies that you're telling yourself. Because I care, I'm going to help you challenge your assumptions. Because I care, I'm gonna help you be as aligned with yourself as you can be. And hey, by the way, the thing that you just did is not the value expression that we talked about when we first started our coaching relationship. You say you value integrity and then you just lied to somebody. What's up with that?
David Morelli:But for ourselves, we think, oh, wait a second, aren't I supposed to be there for my client? And yes, we have to be there for the client in service of their greatest self, not their, I'll call it their smallest self, the one that tends to get trapped in.
Garry Schleifer:As you said earlier, when you started coaching their friend right.
David Morelli:Yeah.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, it's funny because I always describe myself as a ruthless compassion. I'll hug you and kick you in the ass at the same time. So we're not losing the caring, but we care enough to help you grow by being a provocateur once in a while.
David Morelli:Yes, yeah, in the article I shared the moment that I learned that, which was when my coachee my client, took the reciprocal assessment, said hey, what styles do you want from me? She was 10 out of 10 for provocateur and 10 out of 10 on the directness scale. And so my first question to her was how are you lying to yourself right now? And she, you know like, kind of was taken aback a little bit and then listed three different ways she was lying to herself and I said well, what painful outcomes is that creating for you in your life? And like, there was this sort of almost like the blood drained out of her face. And then she started listing those and for an hour it was all provocateur. When I was doing my research that led to this, one of the coaches said it's like I have a touch, a hint of judgment in what I'm saying like, oh, really? Like that's your greatest self?
David Morelli:You know like come on and I was like that's really interesting and that was echoed by a number of different people within the research and so just for background, the research that led to coaching styles. It was 16 of the world's best coaches that I could find and connect with. A former coach at Google, founder of one of the world's best coaching schools, best-selling author in coaching, somebody who coaches the executive team and the board at one of the world's top three universities. A guy who ran all the Navy SEAL teams on the East Coast and then went into coaching a whole host of people like that. It was a great sample of people that in the interview data I as asking them so when you're coaching what do you do?
David Morelli:them so when you're coaching, what do you do? And then, based on what do what's hat's hat's hat's hat's hat's? And one of the guys is actually where provocateur came from. We were having the discussion. He's like I can't put my finger on the word, but it's like I'm there challenging them around every turn and I'm trying to make them squirm a little bit and I was like, oh, like provocateur. He was like yes, that's the word, that's what I do.
David Morelli:So I think if we like like you said, right and then I kick you in the ass, right,
Garry Schleifer:I hug you and kick you in the ass and you physically can do that when you're standing beside somebody. Right hand over here, but left legs swinging around the back.
David Morelli:So there you go.
Garry Schleifer:I tried it, but not physically with my clients, obviously.
David Morelli:Yeah, love that. So for you, like when you're being that positive provocateur, like what have you noticed?
Garry Schleifer:Oh, one of them comes to mind right now where the provocative question was simple why not? And it was something this client was struggling with, the decision they've been struggling with for years and I literally all like and I'm getting chills just thinking about now because I still remember it has transformed her life, like physically, mentally changed her life, and all it took was that simple moment of so why not? And I think it wasn't necessarily as much as a provocateur as it was just a stop. Really, look at this one, like your question with the lies. So you know to your point and in the article it's not anything other than in service of the client.
David Morelli:Exactly, yeah and I like to say that provocateur doesn't have to hurt. That why not? has the person rethink their assumptions. The assumption being I can't and you're like, why not right? And then they have to question that assumption and that has, I'll call it transformative power in such a small dose. T hat two word question that you asked why not? like you said, changed this client's life. So powerful, and yet we're scared to create discomfort actively.
Garry Schleifer:Well, now I'll say with this client, I have created this positive discomfort regularly, because they'll be telling a story and they'll be like, and then and I am like whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, and even now she goes. Well, here we go again, busted. So she knows that the positive discomfort zone is a safe zone and one that will make a difference in her life.
David Morelli:Yeah, I like to say that when confidant is high and provocateur is low, you come across as overly nice, right, and that's the danger that most coaches fall into. But the flip side that we're hedging against is coming across as an a-hole or a jerk right. When provocateur is high and confidant is low. When our caring is low, people can feel like we're just like being mean for no reason or not mean.
David Morelli:But you know, we're just poking for no reason right. But when they're both high, that's where I hug you and kick you in the ass at the same time. I care enough about you to help you look in the mirror at yourself clearly and authentically, and to really see is this what you want to be doing right now?
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, and you know when you read your article, why would we not want to be doing it regularly or equally, at least equally. Like you said, coaches use confident style twice as often as provocateur. So even if we just went up a few bumps, how much work could that have in our coaching? And, like you say, if we're not growing, if we're not uncomfortable, right?
David Morelli:Here's what I noticed in the data. So I shared a little bit about we can assess what the coach uses in terms of their different styles. We also have the reciprocal assessment, to say here's what the coachee is asking for from the coach so you can develop, in a way, the right style blend for that client right. And out of that data not only is for the coach that the confidant style is the highest and provocateur is the lowest, but twice as often as in the coachee version, meaning the client version, they want provocateur twice as often as they want confidant. And so what's interesting is we're exactly mismatching what our clients are asking for right. They want us to help them question themselves. Otherwise, why would they be here in coaching, right? If everything was just as it should be, then they wouldn't be coming to coaching. And so that's what I find fascinating is that people want provocateur and yet we withhold it.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, well, you've developed this RESPECT behavioral style, the test. How do you say it? The test, the assessment and then informing the coach and giving them the confidence to say it's okay. But I want listeners to hear, even today, you don't need to do that to know. David, you've done the research. We know the client wants provocateur two times more than confidant. Coaches provide confidant two times more than provocateur. Let's get on the same page as our clients and risk getting fired and guess what? You won't get fired for being a provocateur in support of the client and service of the client.
David Morelli:Yeah, I had one of my coaches along the way said because you're trying to get everyone to like you, you're doing them a disservice. And then she went on to say so I have a challenge for you. Go out there and risk having everyone hate you, because it's the exact opposite of what I was trying to do. I remember the day that that sunk in, I had I had somebody call for a session and they said okay, I really need your help. I am just about to get kicked out of my Manhattan apartment. My wife is about to leave me.
David Morelli:I'm uh pretty sure that all I need to do is meditate more. And don't get me wrong, I'm like, I believe in things like the law of attraction, things like that. I think the energy that we put out into the world comes back to us, and all that. But he's like, all I need to do is start meditating more, because I wrote this coffee table book six years ago that hasn't really sold any copies, but if I meditate enough, this coffee table book is going to help me with all my financial wildest dreams coming true. I don't have a job. I used to work on Wall Street but that's my strategy. And, by the way, I have, like you know, two to three months left of cash before or we're kicked out onto the street.
David Morelli:And in that moment I had the sense of should I just be the confidant and say, oh, wow, that sounds really hard, right, and oh, you're on the right track? But there was this other part of me, Garry, that was feeling like it was like one of those pots of boiling water where the top of the lid was rattling. That coach's conversation came into my head be willing to be hated by everyone, be willing to be fired. I was like, okay, here goes, here's gonna be the worst coaching session I've ever done.
David Morelli:I was like okay, well, here's what I have to say about that. Wake the f up. I was like your wife is about to leave you. You don't have a job. You're hoping that your coffee table book, which hasn't sold anything, here's what's going to happen. You're going to put all of your energy into that and then you're going to be kicked out of your apartment without a wife pushing a shopping cart filled with coffee table books that are sitting in your closet because none of them sold.
David Morelli:He was like, what? I said here's what you're going to do. This is very prescriptive of them I was like you used to work on Wall Street. You're going to call every single person that you ever connected with on Wall Street. You are going to invite them out to coffee and find a job out of that thing, because if you're not going to do this step, you're going to lose everything that you built towards this moment.
David Morelli:Goodbye, click. It was just like it was conversation over. It was a very short coaching conversation. I thought there is no turning back from that one. Oh, I was shaking like a leaf after that because it was so counter to my personality, counter to what I thought was being a good coach. I was like, oh, I've screwed it up. Oh boy, like I'm going to get reported to somebody. I don't know who I'm going to get reported to. I don't get reported to somebody, right?
David Morelli:It's like I've just killed my entire coaching practice. So I had to sit with that feeling, and so sometimes we have to sit with that feeling of did I just mess this up. Am I at fault here? Did I do a bad thing? Did I, whatever it is. Six weeks later I get a phone call. Can I get four more sessions? He said I did what you asked or what you suggested.
David Morelli:I went and I had all the different conversations. I've got three different job prospects that are lined up. My wife couldn't be happier with the coaching that you gave me. She'd been trying to get through to me for years and so finally I'm listening and you know what I'm excited about the coffee table book, but I realized that it's probably not going to make the largest comeback in the world, so I better have a backup plan called this job, and so thank you so much. I'd love to continue coaching with you. It was like it rushes of energy poured through me because it was that feeling of guilt got lifted and the full cycle of seeing the changes that happen in someone's life when we're willing to go and be more of a provocateur.
David Morelli:I'm not suggesting that that's the right intervention, so speaking quotes for for most people, but that's the moment that it's like I was tiptoeing my way until that moment I crossed that threshold, if you will. Oh, buddy, you crossed a line.
Garry Schleifer:Oh buddy, you crossed a line, many lines. You were ready to be reported for that.
David Morelli:I know I was, but it for whatever reason, like that was the thing I trust my intuition oftentimes and that was the thing that came out.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah.
David Morelli:So I'll tell you. After that I was more willing to ask questions like well, what about this might not be true? That's a more indirect provocateur. Or to say, well, how are you lying to yourself at this moment? I would say that's much more mellow. Even though it feels provocative for many coaches, it was way short of a line that I crossed.
Garry Schleifer:I love that.
David Morelli:Yeah, and I think that's what a lot of I'll say my clients appreciate is that we can have honest conversations about what they're going through and that I won't just be another yes person in their life.
Garry Schleifer:Exactly. Well said. I think that for me, that opening conversation when you first meet a client about confidentiality and I expand on what that means. I'm working for you, only. I don't know who your boss is, I don't know who your wife is, I'm not recording the call. I go through all the scenarios and then I remind them again so that they remember that when I'm asking them these questions, sometimes I still remind them what we're here for. It's in confidence.
David Morelli:They need to know that you have their best self, that you're holding, that you see them and their potential, and that that conversation really is just for them and that's what you're saying in the confidentiality. One of the purposes of the confidant style is to create a safe space, so we're safe enough to then take risks. But if we're not being a positive provocateur and fanning the flames of that greatest self, then that safe space is just a place where they can come and just talk about their lives, but not really change their lives. And I think most people, when they come to coaching, want some form of change. Right, otherwise, what are they there for? One of the ways to do that is with being a positive prerogative. Again, there are seven different styles. We wrote an article together, the Coaching Styles Revolution, which is in an earlier issue of your magazine.
David Morelli:Yeah, and so there's lots of different ways we can help people change, but the provocateur, I think, is the highest dose per word form of that.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, yeah, thank you. Oh, my goodness, my head is spinning now with this, these thoughts, and remembering when I did and didn't and when I shouldn't. I got to do it more, because I'm pretty sure I'm one of those ones that's not doing it enough. David, what would you like our audience to do as a result of this article and this conversation?
David Morelli:You know, I think if you're drawn to this kind of thing, first read the article if you haven't, hopefully you have. But if you want to find out more about styles and maybe the different styles that you use on our website, owlhub. com O-W-L-H-U-B. com. It's where wise leaders and coaches gather, is kind of like where Owl Hub came from. It's where wise leaders and coaches gather. It's kind of like where Owl Hub came from. It's almost like coaches are the owls. So, Owl Hub. com. There's a free coaching quiz that you can take to find your top style and if you come up with Confidant, guess what? It's likely further down the list is provocateur. We actually have thousands of people who have taken the quiz thus far and only 2% of them come out as provocateur as a top style. So it'll be interesting to see each of the listeners, what's your top style? Which ones you use most?
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, very much, and yeah to your point, and I'll see if we can't get that other article put up with this one as well, so people know more about it. David, thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. What's the best way for people to reach you?
David Morelli:Yeah, I think the website is probably the best owlhub. com, absolutely. Thank you so much, Garry, for another great conversation.
David Morelli:Do you mind if I share one other thing, one other thing that just comes to my mind before we're wrapping this up.
David Morelli:In a world where there is a lack of equity, meaning that some people get opportunities and some people don't, where we have biases shaping our lives and the way we process information in the world.
David Morelli:If we let our biases continue to run the world and the way that people get opportunity in the world, we will continue with the same sort of mismatched society and in many ways more mismatched, more imbalanced. But for us to embrace, as coaches, the provocateur style means that there are lies that we are holding as a society that we need to break up, and if you get well skilled at the provocateur style, we can, on scale more than not, start to break up systemic barriers that are preventing underserved people in the world from getting the support that they need. So I believe that the world needs more positive provocateur in order to question the assumptions that we have about our society and the way that we live. And so I think it's not only doing it for your clients and your clients' growth, but I think there's some greater thing that we do collectively as coaches.
David Morelli:Yeah, I think that's important to keep in mind.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, oh wow, thank you so much for that. Thanks for taking a moment to say that.
David Morelli:That gets me.
Garry Schleifer:Well, that's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. Wise words from David right to the very end. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app. If you're not a subscriber, you can sign up for your free digital issue of choice Magazine by going to choice-online. com and clicking the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thanks, David.
David Morelli:Thanks so much. An honor to be here.