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choice Magazine
choice Magazine
Episode #93~ Enhancing Coaching Efficacy: The Synergy of Neuroscience and Personal Development Techniques with guests, Susan Britton & Jessica Burdett
Unlock the power of your mind with guidance from the brilliant Susan Britton and Jessica Burdett, as they reveal how the intricate dance between neuroscience and coaching can amplify personal growth and success. With their expertise, we uncover the transformative influence of understanding our brain's biology on coaching practices. Susan, sharing her extensive experience, sheds light on the pivotal recognition of clients' 'red zone' and 'blue zone' states, while Jessica brings to the forefront the foundational 'why' behind the science, enhancing the art of coaching. This episode promises to arm you with insights that will revolutionize your approach to personal development and unlock a higher level of coaching efficacy.
Journey with us through the fascinating landscape of the human brain, where safety plays a fundamental role in shaping our development and behavior, and learn how to subtly weave neuroscience into your coaching without overwhelming your clients. Discover practical strategies for fostering brain rewiring with patience and the art of questioning. As we connect the dots between neurochemistry, behavior, and coaching techniques, we offer a treasure trove of knowledge. Dive into methods that foster innovation and reduce threats, ensuring a fluid coaching experience. If you're keen on expanding your toolkit with neuroscience-backed coaching methods, this enlightening conversation is your gateway to an enriched coaching journey.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here.
Learn more about Susan Britton here.
Learn more about Jessica Burdett here.
Handout: Red Zone | Blue Zone Model
Susan and Jessica graciously provided a gift to our choice Magazine podcast listeners which you can find here.
Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
Welcome to the Choice Magazine podcast, Beyond the Page. Always sounds like the Twilight Zone, right? choice, the magazine of professional coaching, is your go-to source for expert insights and in-depth features from the world of professional coaching. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm thrilled to have you join us today. In each episode, we go beyond the page of articles published in choice magazine and dive deeper in some of the most recent and relevant topics impacting the world of professional coaching, exploring the content and interviewing the talented minds seen here behind the articles and covering the stories that make an impact. choice is more than a magazine. For over 21 years, we've built a community of like-minded people who create, use and share coaching tools, tips and techniques to add value to the business and, of course, make a difference with their clients.
Garry Schleifer:And an impact, of course, yes, that too. In today's episode I'm speaking with the Coaching Education Leader, Susan Britton, and Director of Coaching Education, Jessica Burdett, who are the authors of an article in our latest issue. Oh my goodness, and it is "Unspeakables - Uncomfortable Topics we Avoid that Impact Coaching Out outcomes. Their article is entitled Interconnections Grounding the ICF Competencies in Neuroscience. A little bit about Susan. She's the founder and president of the Academies for Neuroscience Coaching. Her leadership in coaching education has supported thousands of coaches across six continents to earn an ICF credential.
Garry Schleifer:Susan's passions combine coaching, neuroscience and psychodynamic approaches to change. She holds a Bachelor of Music degree, interesting, and is currently completing her Executive Master's in Change degree at INSEAD in France. Amazing. Susan has formerly served as an ICF Community of Practice leader for career coaching and has authored seven books, delivered hundreds of presentations and created memorable brain-friendly coaching models to support her company's mission of changing minds for good. Jessica is the Director of Coaching Education at the Academies of Neuroscience Coaching Inc., where she drives strategic learning initiatives and creates ongoing learning and connection opportunities for the Academy's alumni community. In her coaching practice, she supports clients in developing authentic and emotional intelligent leadership. She holds a Bachelor of Science in Psychology. Thank you so much, both of you, for joining me today for this podcast. I was very excited to get ready for today and welcome.
Jessica Burdett:Thank you, Garry.
Garry Schleifer:And I'm thrilled to have you here too. It comes on the heels of, for those that are watching, oh, hold on, I still have a copy of the issue here, the Neuroscience of Coaching. So it comes on the heels of that lovely issue and I'm thrilled that the two of you worked with me to present this, because it really brings some connections together. But I do have to ask so what got you on the idea of connecting the neuroscience and the ICF competencies in the first place?
Susan Britton:You know, neuroscience sort of as was outlined by Anne in your prior issue. Neuroscience really kind of came on the scene 10-ish years ago and I was fascinated when I learned about it. I had some mentors that had started digging into it and I just thought somehow this connects to coaching and I wasn't quite sure yet. I don't think anybody was quite sure then. And I recognized that because I'm a firm believer in this holistic approach to coaching, like whole body, not just coaching beliefs and thinking, but your whole body in that process. And when you start talking about a holistic approach to coaching, you cannot ignore things like emotions and intuition and some of those things. And yet I had a number of clients that were very resistant to talking about emotions or feelings or intuitions. Everything had to be hard data. So then neuroscience comes into the picture and I'm thinking well, my gosh, there's the hard data. So it felt a little bit like I was justified. I noticed that I was like well, see. I also realized too that it was an important piece of the puzzle because I felt like when I started to learn coaching 20 plus years ago, it was a lot of talk about your belief systems. And if you could change your belief systems, then your behavior would change, and yet I would coach and people wouldn't necessarily change. Or I wouldn't necessarily change in the things I change, and yet I would coach and people wouldn't necessarily change or I wouldn't necessarily change in the things I wanted.
Susan Britton:And then neuroscience came in and I thought, well, my gosh, there's another B before the beliefs, behaviors, and that's the biology to understand. Neuroscience is a huge topic and I boiled it down to a very simplified, overly simplified in some cases, because there is much more, but just a very simplified model of red zone, blue zone. Red zone being that fight flight state that we get in when we feel some sort of threat. Blue zone being that flow state when we feel safe and connected and possible, and big and expansive, big and expansive. If you don't understand that those things are going on in your client as well as within you, then you're just going to be coaching in a vacuum or a hand wheel or something worse than that.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah. It's funny when you say that, it reminds me of I'm reading lots of fiction novels about World War II women in the
Garry Schleifer:But it reminds me a lot of these people have no history, they have no knowing of what, how they came to be and why I say that is because, just like what you were saying in your article, you've now given the big why does coaching work? So it's like all of a sudden there's to your, so you see, commen t. That's why I was so happy to have this article. So, thank you, and part one of two so folks stay tuned. These brilliant women will be with us again for another podcast after the next article gets published.
Jessica Burdett:Yeah, so definitely Susan's been doing the work with her wonder and intellection around this for quite some time and that was a lot of
Jessica Burdett:I've always been someone who asks why and I love to understand the deeper pieces. So being in an environment where we dig deep and understand what's going on but then also work to translate that so that folks who don't want to memorize all the neuroscience don't have to, I love that balance of the depth and the clarity. And I'll just add to something Susan said. When we think of neuroscience, I think we tend to think brain, but neuroscience is about the brain spread throughout the body. We have our neurons throughout our whole body and so recognizing that is a beautiful way to release a lot of the judgment, I think that we bring, as at least Western cultures, around how our bodies play into things and understanding what it looks like to involve the whole brain body system in supporting effective change.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, well, and it's well said pointing to a particular phrase in the article. "hese pairings are suggested starting points for consideration. Just as each ICF competency supports another, the brain and body are highly interconnected as the whole attempts to operate in balance and homeostasis." Yeah, well said. So I have a big question. Which of these was most surprising of the four? Because remember for those listening we're having a second article. So this is core competencies from the International Coaching Federation, one to four, and the neuroscience principles for each one, and then the coaching tips. It's brilliant. What was the most wow one for each of you?
Susan Britton:I'm going to ask Jessica to start on this one.
Jessica Burdett:Yeah, and I want to first say what each of them are, in case our listeners haven't read the article. So core competency one is demonstrates ethical practice. Core competency two is embodies a coaching mindset. Core competency three is establishes and maintains agreements. And core competency four is cultivates trust and safety.
Jessica Burdett:Most surprising. Or maybe the one that was least surprising, or your favorite. Okay, I think what I will say is most challenging one to work on was number three, because there is so much happening in establishes and maintains agreements. But the one I connect the most with is number four cultivates trust and safety. Me too, that's the one I picked. Awesome, and the reason why is because it's one of those things that I think tends to get lumped into soft skills and we tend to not realize the depth of value of connection much.
Jessica Burdett:And recognizing how much our body need a sense of safety is such a powerful thing to understand, and that's always been like as a coach. Well, reeling back for a second, I think as coaches we come in with a strength of a competency or a couple, and then some that we tend to be like oh, I don't quite see the importance of that one. I definitely love like evokes awareness, facilitates client growth, especially when I was starting my coaching journey, and I remember a coaching mentor saying connection covers a multitude of things. If you have the connection strongly, then good coaching will happen, but if you don't have that, it'll be really hard to support effective change and so being able to outline how connection happens, how we cultivate trust and safety, how that supports high vagal tone which ties into demonstrates ethical practice is a really beautiful way to put a exclamation point on connection and how it works and how we can dig deeper there as a foundation for the work we're doing.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, thank you, wrap it all together.
Jessica Burdett:Yeah, it all connects. I can't disconnect it.
Garry Schleifer:It's almost an unfair question, but you know we all have our favorite children, our favorite books, our favorite movies, so I figure you might have had your favorite reveal as a result of doing this work. Okay, Susan, the baton's back over to you.
Susan Britton:All right.
Susan Britton:So I want to add, because four is my favorite also and I thought it might be Jessica's as well, so I wanted her to start.
Susan Britton:But I also just want to add, you mentioned I'm taking that master's course in psychodynamic change and they start the training by taking us back to the basic wired, fundamental need that we have from the time we are born as infants for a sense of safety. And if we don't have that safety then our brains start get wired in a very unhealthy way. There's a book by Oprah Winfrey and Bruce Perry called "hat Happened to You, and Perry has done some amazing research to find out what happens to children when they are raised in crisis environments and schizophrenogenic environments and just lots of trauma from an early age. And now we've got the MRIs and the scans to be able to see that our brains do not wire the same way healthfully if health H-E-A-L-T-H-I-L-Y, if we don't have that sense of safety from an early age and as we grow and become adults, we still need that. We may deny that we do, but we definitely do. Our brains need it and our bodies need it. So I appreciate adding on to the my favorite.
Garry Schleifer:Piling on to number four, number three and two and one and and six through five, through eight. No, I really appreciate that. Thank you very much for that. I have to say I'm thinking in this moment that this is going to be a great tool for me to just grab one of these and practice it for a week with my clients, or have it in my mind for a week with my clients. Because seriously, you explain the core competency, the neuroscience principle and the coaching tips. I think it goes to a point I was going to ask. How do you easily implement these without having to memorize a lot of science? Right, that's my concern when I'm getting ready to use these, like not gonna say to my client well, your nasal, your vagal tone, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they're going to be like what, what happened here?
Susan Britton:That's a key brain brain principle is that things have got to be relevant for the brain to be interested in learning. And i if we start spitting out information to clients about brain information, then t that's a disconnect in a big way, and of course we're not supposed to be giving information anyway. But so, yeah, that's a great point. I would just respond to your comment about how do we do this without having to feel like we need a degree in neuroscience? So, with huge respect to those who do have those degrees and do have that in-depth understanding, there are some basic concepts that we can at least hold lightly as we go into those conversations with people and I referenced the idea of the red zone, blue zone, that fight flight state or the flow state and if we boil it down as coaches, to think about two core concepts, which is our chemistry and our circuitry. So the neurochemistry would be those things like we've all heard about cortisol and what it does to us and how it kind of lessens the blood flow to the smart part of the brain and we can't see as clearly, we can't have emotional intelligence like we normally would. When that chemistry is ratcheted up too high, then we're going to get off course. You have to have a certain amount of cortisol in your system to get up and do something that is different and a little bit scary and a little bit risky in terms of the way that we have made meaning of the world in the past, but having some understanding of the chemistry that's going on, not just within your client but within yourself, certainly, and then also the concept of the circuitry that is there.
Susan Britton:So circuitry starts from the time that we are itty bitty and it gets wired and reinforced in our family of origins and then it gets added onto by our first bosses and all of these experiences in our life add to all of this wiring, and usually wha.
Susan Britton:hat serves us well in our careers to be able to get promoted and to be liked and to be socially acceptable is that we learn and memorize certain behaviors and at some point those behaviors start to get either overused or no longer as necessary, especially as you're getting promoted. And so if I'm sitting across from a client, I remember chemistry number one and circuitry number two, what is wired in that brain already and what will it take to either reinforce some of it or get some of it pruned or add to it, and to recognize that that does not happen overnight. So the brain also needs repetition to have some sense of being able to repeat it without having to do it with a lot of effort. You know the energy that goes into building new neural connections is a lot. So I can be patient with a client if I think about those two concepts and then I can be strategic about the questions that I'm asking as well.
Garry Schleifer:Wow thank you. That sounds a lot simpler to have those two concepts in your head, circuitry and chemistry, and you speak about that too. There's one part about before, about oxytocin, and another writer wrote about dopamine and small tasks versus large tasks. There's lots of tips and tricks, and you know we can't bring them all forward in our minds when we're coaching and still stay present. So we're a work in progress too. It's a willingness, as you said, a willingness to change and then knowing it may take time. Now you've been doing this for a while, but I'm gonna and I'm gonna start with Jessica this time, because I know Susan's gonna throw it over to you anyway. So what's changed for you as a coach, having become aware of these principles? Miss, why? How does it work?
Jessica Burdett:Yeah, I think this relates a lot to what Susan just said too, like really having patience and releasing judgment for clients.
Jessica Burdett:I think bringing that to myself too, like allowing myself to recognize my own emotions and processes happening and then to have the patience with myself to adjust, is definitely one a flip side of what Susan was sharing, and I think it's just to comfort with resistance, because, rather than seeing resistance as a block, I see resistance as just a place that energy is going besides, where the person wants it to, and something to explore with curiosity.
Jessica Burdett:So, like when the resistance comes up, something that I do as an easy way to remember the neuroscience without remembering begel, tone and dopamine, and all of that is just to explore, like, especially if we're very thought focused in the moment, to be like what are you noticing right now? Or even like it seems like there's some resistance here what's coming up in your body as a way to maybe tap what are the other processes going on and invite people to connect into that wisdom that is in their body, in addition to the cognitive wisdom that might even be hampered if they're very in the red zone right, good, good call I like that all right.
Garry Schleifer:You've had your moment to think Susan. Jessica's taken her turn. What was the question? What's changed for you in your coaching as a result of becoming aware of these principles? My first thought is everything. I also thought even they said became aware of it like 10 years ago, so it may just be normal to you now, like this is just how you do it. I think, for me especially it's I have a compassion that seems to go deeper and a curiosity.
Susan Britton:Compassion and curiosity, I would say, have been deepened as a result of understanding neuroscience better. I'm sure one of my favorite quotes, Seth Godin, says everyone is right. If you knew what they knew, if you wanted what they wanted, if you believed what they believed, you would do the same thing. And so, if I see a client sitting across from me, or even myself in circumstances, and I think that doesn't add up.
Susan Britton:I would never say those things, but if I'm thinking that we think these things right, and when we think these things, we feel these things, and it's quite possible that our clients also feel them in a subtle, unconscious sort of way.
Susan Britton:And so if I can hold that compassion to recognize this is why they're doing this, this is why they're not doing the things that they say they want to do, that just, I think, creates a sense of acceptance and gives me the ability to challenge them, because it's coming from a place of not frustration on my part, but compassion and curiosity, like wow, because if I can get playful with why somebody's feeling stuck at times, it's appropriate to get playful with it.
Susan Britton:If I can go there sometimes, that changes the neurochemistry. To be able to play with it, to be able to go, yeah, why does that person, why does that leader trigger me so much, whereas that one? Now I get curious and I can help them get curious, and so I think that's that's the thing, and I have so much less pressure on myself to deliver results. You know, obviously it's the client that is doing the work, and yet there is this piece that's baked into all of us, because we are social beings and belong to community and we want people to like us and appreciate us. So I have a greater awareness of when that gets in the way and when that might be rising up, so that I can at least make a good choice about being aware of it and putting it aside and staying focused on the client.
Jessica Burdett:I'd love to hop off of something you said, Susan. It's making me think about our key neuroscience concept that we boiled things down to with ICF number three agreements refocus energy toward desired change and this idea of like, refocusing the energy, I think is a really powerful way of shifting it from like. I need there to be outcomes, which, when we're in an outcome mode, is far more likely to lead to a directive coaching approach, whereas when we're there to support the energy and be like, I notice your energy is here. You're saying you want it to be here. What would it take to shift that and bring in that awareness of how much the energy is going different places and change, because we don't have the clarity and focus that really opens things up to be more of that partner, rather than the focus that we bring of like. I need them to have results, which isn't is, in and of itself, a directive focus.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, wow, look at all that connectivity. I love it. Back and forth, back and forth, and we haven't even reached five to eight. That's in the next article.
Susan Britton:That's one of the superpowers, that connection.
Garry Schleifer:Right, there we go. Yeah Well, and that's what we're doing. We're dancing in the moment with our clients, right? So we need to dance with our knowledge, dance with our observation, dance with our listening and just dance with the client, thank you. So what would you like our audience to do as a result of this article and the conversation we're having today?
Susan Britton:Gosh, I would love people to just think about what simple pieces have resonated with you, either from this conversation or from having read the article, and pick one piece that has energy around it for you and memorize it, play with it, experiment with it. First, maybe not with clients, just with the people that you live, love, play, work with Um. The more we can create a safe place to experiment with new ideas, the less threat we're going to feel, the less risk we're going to feel. And when that? When we have that threat going on, that's when we start stumbling and we start, you know, not being quite as fluid. So start in safe places with it. Maybe it's in a team meeting where you just notice the red zone coming up in someone and being curious like I wonder what they think. What did you mean by when you said that? So just having those little places to start. Then you can bring them into the conversations with clients.
Jessica Burdett:Yeah, earlier Garry, you said the great idea of pick one thing to practice and try it for a week, and something that I've found really helpful with that when I have something I want to try on in coaching is I take notes in a notes tab on my computer when I'm in calls. I'll just stick a sentence or a question at the top of it and I'll remember it before I go into each coaching session. And that's a nice way to do, if I can't remember it, to have it in front of myself. And then we've got more in-depth articles on our website, so I'd love to direct people there if they'd like to go deeper, and particularly to note we have so if you go to theacademies. com and then there's a neuroscience tab. Our first article on there is the Neuroscience Advantage in Coaching. That has the red zone, blue zone in it and it has about circuitry and chemistry, so that's a great place to dig deeper there.
Jessica Burdett:And if you want to share red zone, blue zone, feel free, like I often will share that with my clients if they're like really judging themselves for where they're at or why they can't change, or if they are someone who does really like to understand more of the neuroscience. Either of those, I feel like it can be a great tool to be like. Here's a tool I find really helpful in framing the way change works. Here's red zone, here's blue zone, where's this land for you? And then it's something we can keep coming back to when there is that resistance.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, thank you. And to your point, like I do a little differently, as I'm sure all coaches do, but I think that in my preparation moments of breathing and having water ready, and I do a scribble in a Rocket Book, then I remember.
Garry Schleifer:But it's just this thing that kind of locks a few things in, and I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to read one of these every time this week when I have a coaching call and just keep bringing it into my head and then just let it and then notice, take a recap afterwards and see what was different in my coaching that day.
Jessica Burdett:Love that reflection and the playful way of like bringing it beyond just the brain. Right, scribble it.
Susan Britton:Can I just comment too? I mean, that's embodies a coaching mindset, that the learning piece of that and learning about ourselves. I love that, Garry. How do I learn something that will expand my mindset and be of service to the people that I work with?
Garry Schleifer:Always right. That's why we love what we do being of service. I'll also add something for our audience and our readers from the article. An abundance of neuroscience research can contribute to our understanding of why coaching works. Consider how you can stretch and adjust your coaching based on the insights of neuroscience. And the final thing, as it says here watch for part two in the next issue of Choice. Yay, what's? I'm gonna guess it's the academiescom, but is that the best way to reach you for more information or whatever?
Susan Britton:Absolutely so. The academies. com and there's the neuroscience link there. Appreciate so much the way choice boils down these articles and to get them into 250 words and really get them tight, and that's such a gift to the coaching world. If you do want to go deeper, as Jessica mentioned, there are those articles in progress and we have this many words plus more for each of the actual competencies online, lots more research if you really want to go become a sort of a neuro nerd.
Garry Schleifer:And in the bottom of the article there are links to all of the notes and research that are notated in the article. So, yeah, you can go as deep as you want and don't forget the previous issue on neuroscience.
Jessica Burdett:You can also connect with us on LinkedIn. We'd love to stay connected there and that's a great way to just get recurring tidbits of neuroscience into your feed so that you can digest those. Susan creates really great neuroscience and coaching content regularly.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you. Thank you for your service, both of you.
Susan Britton:And you yours, Thank you.
Garry Schleifer:So thank you for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode.
Jessica Burdett:Thank you, it's been really fun.
Garry Schleifer:That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, you continue to subscribe via your favorite podcast app. If you're not a subscriber, you can sign up now for your free digital issue, oh, I got it right this time, by using the QR code here or going to our website, choice-online. com and clicking the Sign Up Now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thank you, Jessica. Thank you Susan.