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choice Magazine
choice Magazine
Episode 107: Unlocking Neuroscience Secrets for Advanced Coaching Strategies with guests Susan Britton and Jessica Burdett
Unlock the secrets of the brain and elevate your coaching practice! In our latest episode, we welcome back coaching education experts Susan Britton and Jessica Burdett to discuss how cutting-edge neuroscience research can transform your approach to ICF coaching core competencies. Discover how focusing on deeper learning and insight—not just actionable items—can lead to more effective and lasting changes for your clients. Susan and Jessica shine a light on the critical processes of unlearning and relearning, offering practical strategies to help you enrich your coaching conversations without overwhelming your clients’ cognitive systems.
But that's not all! We also explore the powerful role of emotional regulation and co-regulation in coaching. Understand how your presence and self-regulation can profoundly impact your clients' emotional states, shifting their perspectives from fear to opportunity. Learn the importance of maintaining a "blue zone" state for heightened coaching effectiveness and discover how to foster neuroplasticity through small, incremental steps. This episode is packed with actionable insights and advanced tactics to help you grow as a coach and support your clients' journey to meaningful change. Join us for an inspiring discussion that blends neuroscience, empathy, and practical wisdom in the realm of coaching.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here.
Learn more about Susan Britton here.
Learn more about Jessica Burdett here.
Handout: Red Zone | Blue Zone Model
Susan and Jessica graciously provided a gift to our choice Magazine podcast listeners which you can find here.
Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles. ave a chat with the brilliant authors behind them on my screen there on either side, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world and let me tell you, this one really does so stay tuned, put on your seatbelts. Join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives. This is your go-to resource for all things coaching, so let's dive in.
Garry Schleifer:In today's episode, I'm speaking again, yay, with Coaching Education Leader, Susan Britton and Director of Coaching Education, Jessica Burdett, who are the authors of an article in our latest issue and I don't know if you can see those that are on YouTube and watching. There's the cover. It is a modified Alice in Wonderland. The title of this issue is "A Livelihood from Coaching Feasible or fanciful? Hmm? The article that they've co-written is called Presence, istening, awareness and Growth Grounding the ICF Competencies in Neuroscience, and we welcome them back because this is part two of their series on combining neuroscience, well relating neuroscience and the ICF coaching core competencies, he says with his tongue twisting. Let's hear a little bit about these wonderful, brilliant women.
Garry Schleifer:Susan Britton is the Founder and President of the Academies for Neuroscience Coaching. Her leadership in coaching education has supported thousands of coaches across six continents to earn their ICF credential. Susan's passions combine coaching, neuroscience, go figure, and psychodynamic approaches to change. She holds a Bachelor of Music degree and is currently completing her Executive Masters in Change Degree oh sorry, Executive Masters in Change Degree at INSEAD in France. Awesome. Susan has formerly served as an ICF community of practice leader for career coaching and has authored seven books, delivered hundreds of presentations and created memorable brain-friendly coaching models to support her company's mission of changing minds for good.
Garry Schleifer:And that has a double entendre right? Like for good and for good. For permanent good. Exactly. Permanent good. I love it. Jessica Burdett is the Director of Coaching Education at the Academies for Neuroscience Coaching, where she drives strategic learning initiatives and creates ongoing learning and connection opportunities for the Academy's alumni community. In her coaching practice, she supports clients in developing authentic and emotionally intelligent leadership. She holds a Bachelor of Science in Psychology. Thank you so much for coming back. Thank you so much for writing and being here today.
Garry Schleifer:Lovely to be here.
Susan Britton:Thanks for having us back.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you also for continuing the series. And in the first article and podcast, we talked about what was the first four competencies and this time around we're going to talk about the other four and, again, the connection between neuroscience and the core competencies. But I want to say so like out of the gate. So when I was rereading it, something that really struck me and this occurred to me as unlearning and relearning and it was related to something I'm pretty good at actionable items. But the way it was written, and tell me if this is exactly the way it's written in the ICF core competencies. The coach invites the client to articulate new insight and learning from the session about themselves and the situation and consider how they will use this learning to move forward.
Garry Schleifer:I remember when I was coach training school, all that got in my thick head was give them homework to do, give them actionable items, give them something to be accountable to. But this says the same thing, but in a way that really transfers it over. Is that a shift from originally? Do you remember I'm not meaning to put you on the spot, I'm just wondering if anybody knows about that?
Jessica Burdett:My response to that is that, from a neuroscience perspective, everything is about learning. Everything is about understanding that you've got this meaning making system going on up here and we make sense of things and we take actions based on making sense of things. Sometimes it's conscious making sense and a lot of times it's unconscious making sense. But the the learning, I love your concept about relearning or unlearning. Yeah, if you don't stop doing things that are not serving you, which is a learned. There's a bunch of neural connections that are associated with whatever it is that we've got for these habits and behaviors. If you don't stop that, if you don't let those sort of neural connections die, then you're not going to get the change that you want. It's like trying to crowd more things into your closet that's already too full. Take some things out.
Garry Schleifer:You've seen my closet, okay, stop it.
Susan Britton:So I'm appreciating that that concept of unlearning in the closet analogy. This seems like it applies a bit. Jessica, what would you add to that?
Jessica Burdett:Yeah, so I think you were also asking, Garry, like have the competencies changed?
Garry Schleifer:A little bit of that just wondering if anybody noticed that particular change.
Jessica Burdett:I have far more towards learning and less towards a focus really honed in on action, because I remember being trained very much like you got to get the action items. You've got to really dial those in. They have to be very concrete and I like having that background but bringing in the added like what did you learn and how do you want to apply that learning, I think has really enriched the discussion as well for the reasons Susan mentioned related to neuroscience.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, , yeah, oh, you know, and it, and it struck me that when you're asked action actual items, asking the client, so what are you going to do? Like I had just had this picture of the amygdala going, freaking out right and and and shutting them and and I get. Everything everything I'm doing and learning, including from both your the articles that you've is is like I say, here's me digging into this particular one , facilitates client growth, and and to your point Jessica jessica, I seem to remember something about action. What what did you say was what kind of action was? Um, anyway, but very clear, direct, concrete. Thank you, that was the word concrete.
Garry Schleifer:this, to me, says to the client be introspective, be reflective, a soft, still the impact, same impact but in a way that isn't like hammering down that that, back in high school and grade school. school, you've to figure out what your homework is, we've got to assign you homework and it's not, it's so, , . you very much. I really loved how you somehow managed to highlight that for me. Susan, you look like you're going to burst.
Susan Britton:Okay. . So I started with the one through 11 competencies as well. Now we're at the one through eight, and the last one was about managing growth and accountability, which sounds very much like what you were just saying, like get on board, go out and act, do it. And that is an amygdala sort of response, like oh my gosh, now if I fail at acting or if I fail at being accountable, then your brain's not working with you and for you, whereas now there's a big emphasis and you see this in the certainly the PCC markers with learning about self and learning about the situation, and once you're in that learning space, now you're getting all sorts of dopamine hits because you're learning. That's that's tamped down, that fear of I gotta be rigid and I gotta get it right and I gotta go out and drive, drive, drive. I think it's a much more. humane
Garry Schleifer:Exactly you.
Garry Schleifer:It is
Garry Schleifer:it much more humane and much more in line with what we're learning and know when learning from the two of you about neuroscience and that. And thank you for reminding me about the dopamine because our friend of mine, meredith Kanan she did an article about dopamine and about how when you have such a big project and it's so overwhelming similar to overwhelming actionable items you shut down. But if you could break them into smaller and have these little successes, your dopamine just keeps, keep getting bad dopamine. Something like drug addicts, aren't we?
Garry Schleifer:Well, we are. We are certainly addicted to our patterns.
Garry Schleifer:Well, and Garry a chemistry thing, I mean the body chemistry. So, and why wouldn't you want happiness and energy and excitement in your life, right?
Susan Britton:I actually, gry, in my first, like my introductory sessions with clients, I'll be telling them the flow of the session that we'll start with checking in on action items from the session before and I almost always tell them and if they didn't get done, don't be stressed, I'm not going to bring any judgment about that, I know you might, but I'm not going to. We're going to look at it with curiosity about why they didn't get done and what we can learn from it. Because I think it's far more interesting to have the conversation around what got in the way of it happening. Maybe they weren't the right action items and then to expect that they will have done all the things that they said they would do.
Garry Schleifer:Well and okay. Now I have to ask you have you changed that closing conversation?
Jessica Burdett:Have I changed the closing conversation?
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, that's the instruct, because it's no longer like for me. I'm not going, no longer going to say, ok, so what actionable items? I'm going to say how might you use this learning to move forward? Yeah, let them say what they're going to do. And then I and I don't know what just the word action just seems to not fit with our learning and what you've presented. So I'm just thinking, I'm going to you know, as I did from learning from your first article about the entry same thing. Start with celebration as opposed to you know what you did or didn't get done, or you know what's your challenge today.
Garry Schleifer:Agai amygdala, right, craziness.
Jessica Burdett:Yeah, definitely have changed to being more what earlier in the conversation, what are you learning, and then having a conversation around what's it look like to integrate that learning? Where does that apply beyond this situation you're bringing today so that we can make it be something that is more holistic, rather than narrowed in and cutting out different aspects of life. yeah
Garry Schleifer:I love the word holistic because when you say that I'm thinking actual items are such a narrow focus of goal oriented things, but if you say, how are you going to apply that, it could be anything fro.\ You know, I'm gonn I'm gonna uh, meditate or I'm gonna go for a walk or I'm gonna breathe. I know they sound actionable, but they sound more holistic than you know. I'm gonna hit the ground running and you're gonna go do this, this, this and this. I'm gonna come back and report to you and I just not what we're about. So again, highlighting that in the article was brilliant, thank you.
Jessica Burdett:Can I pop off of that to say two of my favorite neuroscience concepts in this article that I think are related.
Jessica Burdett:So they are silence, which we put in lessons actively, and emotional co-regulation, which is in Competency 5. And when you say that about meditation, I'm thinking about how I used to be extremely uncomfortable with silence when I was younger. I had to fill every silence there was and ask questions all the time immediately and in the coaching journey largely, and some other aspects of life, I've become much more comfortable with silence, but sometimes it's still really hard to hold the silence for myself. So I think that's part of as well, like expanding the possibility to. It doesn't have to be this breakneck speed that we're so keen on in at least North American culture, right Western culture, american culture and being able to slow it down.
Jessica Burdett:And then I connect that to emotional co-regulation, which is the idea that our emotions are contagious with each other. So if I can show up holding silence with confidence and peace and being in we call it the blue zone, where you're in your parasympathetic nervous system, able to be calm and open, if I can show up holding that space, it invites others to be in that space and I really appreciate that as a client as well, to be able to show up to a coach who holds silence space really well, because then, like it mentions in the article, you get to tap the expanded creativity of where your brain can go when it has the silence to work with. But I think sometimes we're so uncomfortable with silence it takes someone else being able to hold that space with confidence and trust in it being important for us to be able to rest into it to be able to rest into it.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you so much. If you'd bring something up in there for me and I wonder what your thoughts are on that one. And I don't know where it is in the article, but when I was rereading it I thought that what you talked about, about the when you start to what is it? Vibrate, when you start to get an emotional regulation with your client or a person and you start to so first I thought, couples, which is why they start looking alike, because they just they're just regulating it. The same thing. But is there a danger of being so regulated with your client that you miss what's around, what's going on?
Susan Britton:So I think, when you are truly present and you are in a space where you are calm and regulated, that you're not going to miss what's happening around because there is an awareness that happens. It's just within myself, it's also within what's happening within Jessica and Garry, and I'm also aware that the AC is on, I'm aware that the sun is starting to peek through. I'm aware of some of these other things because I've quieted my brain down to stop thinking about me and my next response. There's a concept of listening without memory or desire in therapy. And when you quiet your desires for that other person and just are curious about them, for me it opens up more than just that other person. There is just a greater awareness on a systemic level, I think.
Jessica Burdett:I think, more, if anything, the danger would be getting pulled into the emotions of the other person, and that goes back to like ICF number two, being able to maintain self as instrument. I'm not sure if we framed it that way in that article, but we often talk about the concept of self as instrument, that the best tool we have as coaches is ourselves, and that's why the development of it is so important, like is offered in the embodies coaching mindset of ICF number two. And so we need to make sure we have space for things like silence and processing and growth and learning and application as coaches, so that we can bring that presence. That's not just like I'm here with you holding space, but it's like I'm here with you and my body is tuned to be emotionally regulated so that I could support you being emotionally regulated and not be like you're super anxious
Garry Schleifer:Right, and to both of your points, it can be both at the same time. Like you can be with the client and be emotionally regulated with them, but also be aware of everything else, based on our training as coaches. So I guess I got a little too linear on that one. So thank you for breaking that down for me. Susan, you look like you want to add something to that.
Susan Britton:Well, yeah, I'm thinking too on that co-regulation piece. There is like this containment concept where let's say that you want your client to be able to express those strong emotions. If they've been tamped down or buried or denied, then that's going to block, obviously, things that need to be able to move forward and to hold that, without internalizing it, but to have empathy towards the other person. I think that's the big piece in self as instruments is that we can hold that without getting stressed out but still experiencing it with that other person. And then that takes us to another really important neuroscience concept, which is the whole meaning making. So if somebody's stressed out about something, they've got a meaning making system around it, a belief, a perspective around it that says this is going to threaten me or harm me and if somebody feels threatened or harmed, it's just going to keep that cycle of kicking in the cortisol and the fight flight rhythm. So until you can sit and face what is scaring you and that often helps, it often helps if the coach can sit and face it as well, without getting stressed out. That ability to not get stressed out then helps the other person to not get stressed out and look at it from a little different perspective. That's where we want to go when we're looking at evokes awareness and facilitates growth. If you start to shift the meaning that you bring to this situation the client starts shifting. That's where we're unlearning that, oh, this means something scary. No, now, this means this is a challenge. This means an opportunity for me to tap into a strength that I have, or a new way of looking, or a new way of showing up, and once that meaning making starts to happen around the situation, now they can move through it and then, on the other side, as we talked about earlier, start with it, start iterating it, start integrating it, start playing with showing up a little bit differently. So that's yeah.
Garry Schleifer:Addition yeah, thank you. Wow, I'm gonna love this stuff. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So a question for each, or both, or one. How has connecting neuroscience to the IACF competencies changed the way you practice and think about them? This is a lot of work you've done.
Susan Britton:Right, and I mean, if you start studying neuroscience, wow, it's like walking into the Library of Congress. The specializations that neuroscientists have started getting into are just so multiplied, and so it can feel overwhelming, like the concept that you mentioned earlier, like where do you find a little tiny nugget to work with? Get that mean hit. My sense is that, Jessica tapped into it a minute ago, the self as instrument. If you can start thinking about neuroscience from a self as instrument perspective, what is my neurochemistry? Is it more blue zone or is it more red zone? What's the circuitry that I've walked into this conversation with, and to pause the belief systems that I have about how I should act, how I should respond, what I should say, like get the focus off of me and be super curious about, so now I'm changing my circuitry, I'm going to be super curious about the client and their meaning making system. Those two things for me help me show up differently, better as a coach, and then that obviously supports the client as well. So those are the two little pieces I try to hold in mind for myself first, and then it just automatically flows out to the client interaction.
Garry Schleifer:And reminder our listeners again the distinction between red zone and blue zone.
Susan Britton:So easiest way to think of that is which nervous system is in charge. Is it the sympathetic, stress-related nervous system, and that's the red zone, or is it the parasympathetic nervous system? Blue blue zone is peaceful, and when you're in sympathetic nervous system, we have to have it, because that allows us to take action when things you know heat up, get out of the way of the oncoming car. However, we do know that it decreases our cognitive capacity. It decreases our ability to relate and create trust with one another, and so if the stress really ramps up, we're not going to think as clearly. So that's where the co-regulation comes back in. We can calm ourselves down, calm other people down.
Garry Schleifer:I suggest people read this article before they do their coaching cause that's way to calm down. I know I'm going to do it. Jessica, what about you? What's the biggest change for you?
Jessica Burdett:It's increased confidence, because being able to say yeah, there's good reasons to do these things is very helpful. For me, more helpful than someone said I should do this. And also I think that can be very helpful as well to bring to clients who are maybe like, why are you doing it this way? Or bring some resistance to be able to be like a nugget for you. The reason why I hold silent space to allow you to process is because it allows things to connect in your brain that wouldn't if we have constant noise and so that's like confidence for me, confidence for them, co-created confidence, co-regulated.
Jessica Burdett:Yes, exactly, knowing it's all connected.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, isn't it amazing that when you're a certain way, other people show up a certain way, or when you're having issues, these other issues show up right? So if we can co-regulate ourselves to be the best coach we can, as we are always doing, it's just a blessing for our clients. Just love it, love it, love it. Well, I'll tell you, I've certainly learned a lot, and every time I reread it I learn even more, because, of course, by now I've read it about five or six times between the time you first submitted till today, and I will continue to read it. In fact, I have an idea I might print it off and start a binder of sorts of these kind of things for me to spend my five to 10 minutes before a coaching call. Maybe just pick something.
Garry Schleifer:As you may know, I'm working on my. Well, I'm able to sit for my MCC at some point, and so I'm guessing that's now going to be next year, because I'm just going to renew my PCC this year because it's all filled out. Okay, step back. There's a lot of information. Two articles, eight core competencies, eight neuroscience, eight sets of tips, a lot of stuff. Where should a coach start when they're reading this and wanting to say okay, I love this. Which one do I do first? Or or or.
Susan Britton:I'm going to come back to anything that is going to resonate with you about your ability to be the instrument self. That self as instrument concept really aligns with the blue zone, like how do I get my parasympathetic nervous system in control? And from there everything else sort of unfolds. Once the parasympathetic nervous system, that blue zone state in our mind and body, is in place, then you can get to all of the other competencies. And I use the metaphor that if you're trying to get to the second floor but you don't have a set of stairs, it's going to be really hard to get to the second floor. That blue zone state, the parasympathetic nervous system, is going to be the thing that gets you. You know, there's your set of stairs. So if you're going to go through this article, look for something that resonates about this is how I can be in a greater state of blue zone as a coach for my clients.
Garry Schleifer:Wow Cool.
Jessica Burdett:And connecting to what you said earlier, Garry, around dopamine and choosing small steps rather than being like, oh I need to get this perfect, pick a little place to practice it, and I like to like try out a question or something that helps me think more in an approach, write it on my notes and then practice it for a week with every client. I adapt it, of course, but to create comfort with something and to see results from it.
Jessica Burdett:Focusing small allows that dopamine and the learning and the new connections, rather than trying to expand across it all and likely creating more stress for ourselves.
Susan Britton:So one of the things that the brain has to have to develop some sort of a new behavior is repetition, and so that practicing one little thing for a week is going to be the thing that then gives us, focuses, our attention, so that you've got new neuroplasticity happening in the brain, so you've got new connections reinforced. So I just wanted to reinforce the repetition piece there that Jessica was bringing up.
Garry Schleifer:Right and I like I have a book I have that has I could just put at the top of the page for the coming week, just pick something and say, okay, like a question. I'd really love to work towards how will you use this learning to move forward? What are you taking from today and how would you use this you know, just an added little nuance to it and play around with it and see how it lands and see what goes on and watch the reaction in the client, because mine are all on Zoom right, so I'll do it from there. Oh my gosh, this is so amazing. We could go on forever and ever and ever and ever. What's next for the two of you, or each of you? Any more books, articles? Are you going to write for choice again soon? There's no more competencies.
Garry Schleifer:Sorry, yeah, let's go into the team competencies or something.
Susan Britton:Jessica and I were just talking that we saw the inquiry about like what's new in coaching and so because I'm at INSEAD finishing a thesis around the change, I'm kind of curious about the psychodynamic interconnection with change. So Jessica and I were thinking about maybe we'll write something for that and submit.
Garry Schleifer:We'd love to have anything from the two of you or each of you. It's been absolutely wonderful learning. I am like just on fire with what you've written and going over it again and again. It's one of those things that you just you got to put a flag on it and say this one's a regular, you know, in your resource library. Thank you.
Jessica Burdett:It's a special treat to get to enjoy the process of writing and then know it gets to be shared, and then get to have delightful conversations with you, Garry.
Garry Schleifer:Exactly. I love it, and seriously, because it expands my learning and the learning of our readers to this platform. And you can only get so much into 1400 words and you don't get the nuance, you don't get how much your heart is in it and how much your love of what you're doing, and I mean it' s evident in the writing, but it's more evident when I see the two of you, so that's great
Susan Britton:And can I add, we do have more in-depth on every single competency and we've spent over a year going in-depth writing articles. We're through ICF number five, so we've got three on our website if people really want to do a deeper dive, deeper in depth. nd that's in the end of the article.
Garry Schleifer:Ad that in the end of the article, theacademies com/n euroscience-a nd- the- Icf- core- competencies, or just go to the article and take it up there. It's easier. I'm sure that if you Google it or get your chat bot to find it, it'll do so. Oh, my goodness. Well, we know exactly where to find you. Any other details to help people find you? Theacademies. com, obviously.
Jessica Burdett:And LinkedIn also, yes.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, Linkedin, all those sort of places.
Garry Schleifer:Any final words, my friends.
Susan Britton:Oh, I would say choose, in honor of choice Magazine, choose to be curious, choose to continue to learn, choose to continue to read choice, because the learning that we get from these articles and what you continue to put together on a quarterly basis is just priceless.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you. Yeah, you know I can't help but reminding. I know it sounds a bit self-serving, but this is the industry's only magazine, unbiased, and it has been for 22 years and we don't see any reason to change that. In fact, we're planning our 25th anniversary. Yes, do that for me. Come on, Jessica, get in there, and it's not working for me, so awesome. Thank you very much, seriously. Yeah, I wonder if I could even like. Let's see if I can at least do this. There we go, oh, I hit a button. I hit a button and it did.
Garry Schleifer:It hearts everybody. If you're not watching, I know. Who knew? Very cool, crazy. So we have fun on these podcasts too.
Susan Britton:We're co-regulating somehow, I don't know exactly.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app if you're not a subscriber to Choice Magazine. Oh darn, I never get it right. This mirroring. You can click on this QR code and get a free digital edition, or go to choice-online. Lots of dashes today and clicking the sign up now button. Thank you very much. Jessica, Susan, can't wait to see the next article and have you back on a podcast.
Garry Schleifer:I'm Gary Schleifer, enjoy the journey of mastery.