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Episode 115: Unlocking Coaching Evolution in China: Cultural Insights and Evidence-Based Practices with guest, Marjorie Woo

• Garry Schleifer

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Executive coach Marjorie Woo takes us on a fascinating journey through the evolution of coaching in China, a landscape rich with cultural nuances and challenges. As we explore her article, "Knowledge vs Wisdom," Marjorie provides keen insights into the burgeoning need for evidence-based coaching, especially in a post-pandemic world. We delve into the history of coaching in China, drawing parallels to the initial misunderstandings faced in North America's early coaching days, and shedding light on the evolving strategies that practitioners are employing to communicate the value of coaching in a fast-evolving global context.

Discover the complexities of coaching in diverse Asian cultures, where language and cultural proficiency are not just bonuses but necessities. Marjorie opens up about the intricacies of aligning coaching practices with government policies and the societal emphasis on respecting elders in Eastern cultures. Her personal journey in adopting evidence-based coaching, particularly in the healthcare sector, underscores the importance of integrating scientific principles with the art of coaching. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone interested in understanding how coaching is contributing to societal growth and the potential it holds as China's middle class continues to expand.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Marjorie Woo here.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Garry Schleifer :

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of hoice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, gary Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles. ave a chat with the brilliant authors behind them and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. Join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives. This is your go-to resource for all things coaching. Let's dive in.

Garry Schleifer :

In today's episode, I'm speaking with xecutive coach Marjorie Wu, who is the author of an article in our latest issue Coaching Education in Flux: the Ongoing Evolution of a Dynamic Field. Her article is entitled "Knowledge vs Wisdom the Need for Evidence-Based Coaching in China. Marjorie is a PhD and an MCC and is the founder and director of Keystone Group Shanghai, a coaching service pioneer in China and Asia, dedicated to the development of coaches and the coaching profession. Thank you. She and her cohorts have coached more than 2,000 senior level executives and more than 30,000 mid-level managers in China. Her personal client list includes Global 500 companies, Chinese government enterprises and private listed companies. Marjorie, thank you so much for joining me today.

Marjorie Woo:

Hi, Garry. It's my pleasure.

Garry Schleifer :

Yes, so we were talking earlier, so I have this lovely background of choice, but, Marjorie has a lovely background of Shanghai, which is where you obviously do a lot of work. So, but we were joking because she said it's 15 years ago and it's changed so much in 15 years. So it's kind of like the same as we have here in Toronto. That's very interesting. So, Marjorie, why did you choose to write this article at this time? What called you?

Marjorie Woo:

Well, a couple of things, because I think, as we all experienced, in a world emerging from a pandemic, leaders and coaches all are asking questions and finding answers on the current and future state of organizations and business models, human health and the health of our planet. And then the books that we are reading now, we're talking about social revolution and talking about where do we go from here, relationships and all of that. So the world is exploring where do we go from here? And as coaches in this profession, we are facing in the same thing and we're called to, supposedly to support and leading this potential new world. So that's why I go , Okay, now what? Where have we been? Where are we now? Where are we going? I don't have all the answers that I start to seeking for that. And then Marcia Reynolds, she's a wonderful friend and mentor in some ways, and so she said well, you should write this. Yeah, that's what happened.

Garry Schleifer :

Awesome. Well, thank you very much because you know we tend to receive a lot of articles that are North American or, in particular, US centric, so I'm always enjoying seeing things from a global perspective from other parts of the globe. So thank you so much for doing this. You know we were talking earlier and just some more context around coaching in China and in Asia. I remember I was on the Board of Directors of the International Coaching Federation back, oh my gosh almost 20 years ago, and there was a lady there and she had started a coaching school and unfortunately, she and her husband were jailed and the school was shut down. So that leads me to so what's changed? You seem very comfortable. You're not worried about this sort of thing. Like has the government changed? Did you do work or coaches do work in helping them understand what coaching is?

Marjorie Woo:

I think a multitude of thing s. She started in earlier days and so that her business model, coaching was new, first of all. Just like when you talk about leadership in her days and then people go, goes, well, leadership, we don't do leadership here. Leadership is either done shouting and all the leaders that are in position. So you talk about coaching and what the heck is that? And you know it's a very new concept and people were not quite ready for that and takes a long time to communicate that. And the second thing is in earlier days, because the globalization in China that's kind of growing in a huge way and many new business models was introduced to China. Some groups are acceptable, others they do not understand. I think her business actually did quite well, that's was my understanding, and team were growing in the way that was viewed as multi level sales.

Marjorie Woo:

That was the business model they didn't quite understand and entrepreneurs were the very beginning of things. And you're talking about this coaching and you get people all excited. I think in one situation this young man had a lot of challenges to begin with, and then I wasn't sure. I don't know the facts, those are the hearsay, the jumped out of the window, so that does it. And coaching, then the definition of coaching was not really communicated and practice of coaching was not communicated clearly.

Garry Schleifer :

Well, very interesting background to the whole coaching and not too dissimilar to what was going on in North America. There wasn't a great understanding of what it was and you know I remember I started coaching in 2001, so basically like five or six years after coaching was, you know, a profession officially? So we did a lot of work in early days, I'm sure you did as well, to educate, but something else we were talking about earlier, you gotta love the green room conversation. So much stuff gets revealed, but apparently you were saying you're still getting the asked the question how do you know coaching works?

Marjorie Woo:

Because the definition of coaching and coaching is really contextual, because it involves a coachee and a coach, and for us, my experience is more in the business environment and with multinational companies. So we are a little better identified and we coach executives working for the companies and to identify their competency level and the understanding of the culture and what is the corporate headquarters expecting of them, and both he or she and then identified specific evaluation methods so they can communicate on the same page. And then, on top of that, then you have, since we're talking about the China context so globalization, multinational companies coming into China, and for those executives and companies that based in Beijing versus in Shanghai or Guangzhou could be totally different situation and different requirements. So in order for coaching to be effective, then the coach and the process need to be able to connect the coachee with their direct advisor, direct report executive in the headquarters. And then also often their job is to build a company and they have to produce a certain percentage of revenue in this brand new market.

Garry Schleifer :

Right.

Marjorie Woo:

They've been an expat and they have perceived to be a great package, but they literally work 24/ 7. So there's a lot of personal challenges and families and all of that, and at the same time, they have to deliver at least 30% every year over year. So you see the picture?

Marjorie Woo:

Yeah, it's almost impossible in a developing country and in developing economy to accomplish all that without sounding board, without support, without some guideline to where they can be most effective yeah.

Garry Schleifer :

Well, it sounds like coaching came along at quite the right time for all of those events that were happening at the same time globalization and all that sort of stuff. Now I'm going to go a little bit off track, but not not too far. When you define coaching in English and then you define coaching in, let's say, Chinese, Mandarin or Cantonese, does it take on a different sense? I mean, because there are different nuances in every language and there's different nuances in every culture. I can't imagine it's directly translated. How does it come across in those countries?

Marjorie Woo:

Well, that's a good question. I mean, that's a $64,000 question. You have in the West you have coaches in football and in sports and all of that. Most people understand that and most countries also understand that. When you're talking about an individual executive or personal coach, then first of all they go okay, what was that? Is that business related? Is that individual interest? And secondly, when it's business related, in the early days in China and it's difficult to see, well, what is a coach. In the organization, I have my boss. I mean that's very clear. Who's the leader, right? Who are my direct reports? That's also clear.

Marjorie Woo:

So, this coach, what are you endeavor to do, and the boss, don't quite know exactly what to do with you and how he or she should treat you as equal, should treat you as someone that they can seek for support as well. Then the HR and they go well, how do we handle this? You have assessment tools, you have different evaluation reports and yet they are not open for HR recording. Oh, what are you doing? How do we know that you're effective? Why should we pay you? And then they don't and they could be able to adjust.

Marjorie Woo:

So in the earlier days, today's situation is much, much better and really due to the efforts of the practitioners like yourself, the OD's and leadership and HRD and recruiters and all of that and this become much more clearer and also there are definition that you can attach to and you can show them to say, really, this is open, above board, and there is a framework and there is a process and they have results that need to be evaluated and has to be reporting to the home office as well as the local via government in interface yeah so it took a while, but today's world, you have all kinds of coaching, you have yoga.

Garry Schleifer :

Everybody can call themselves a coach, right?

Marjorie Woo:

Yeah, that's it. That creates a different set of complexity. You go okay, so everybody is a coach. Now what do you do and how do we treat you?

Garry Schleifer :

Well, you've mentioned so many ways for it to work and needs to work in Asia. I think one of the things that really stuck with me, and this goes back to the government, is government policies aligning coach training programs with national policies and regulations to gain government support and recognition. I would add the word "and understanding , absolutely, absolutely.

Marjorie Woo:

Absolutely, absolutely. Understanding and best on the same page. Because understanding in many different ways. Yeah, I understand, but what exactly you do? And, however, there is a caveat, if you are more mature, meaning you're older and you are better respected or accepted.

Garry Schleifer :

In Asia, not in North America.

Marjorie Woo:

Okay, that's true.

Garry Schleifer :

See, now there's a very important cultural point.

Marjorie Woo:

Very much so.

Garry Schleifer :

Because the elders are respected more in in Eastern culture.

Marjorie Woo:

And then figure that since you are older, you may have had more learning experience

Garry Schleifer :

We all know how true and untrue that can be yes.

Marjorie Woo:

I know, and actually you could be learning the same thing for a multitude of times as well yeah.

Garry Schleifer :

No, that's funny, you know, and you also wrote something that's also very obvious, but then it still needs to be said is language proficiency.

Garry Schleifer :

Effective coaching in China and Asia requires fluency in local and other regional dialects to overcome language barriers and communicate effectively with a diverse clientele. And you can add language and cultural proficiency, obviously based on what we're saying today. So thank you for being like just really pointing that out, because it could be overlooked and you know, it's one of those things that's like, oh well, everybody knows that. It's like, well, no, they don't, and they need to be reminded that people want to be taught and spoken to in the language of their choice. And right then you spoke of Marcia Reynolds and she went over there to help and obviously she's made a big impact, as we know, but it sounds to me like she's handed it off to those of you that can bring it to the people in their language, in their culture.

Marjorie Woo:

Yeah, I think Marcia is a very special person and she's very, in terms of cultural understanding or empathy, she's very much on the same page with people and whoever she's working with. Language alone in China from some of us, from a distance, then China is China. But China has, in terms of language, there's like 30 different tribes and a different dialogue, from Beijing, the biggest place of Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and all the other provinces in between, there are more than 30 different languages.

Marjorie Woo:

So not just one cultural practices as well, and other than the basic values of felicial piety and respect your elders, and honesty and those kind of things that everybody knows. And then underneath that, you have a hundred different contexts that you really need to deal with. So that is for, but China has a enormous possibility of growth as well as could contribute to the global development, as well as understanding.

Garry Schleifer :

Yes.

Marjorie Woo:

So yeah, so coaching, I think it does and still could be play a very important role for a society. When was high middle-class and better working living conditions and began to think about, you know, communication and relationships. Those were done, but it was not said or expressed in the coaching way.

Garry Schleifer :

Interesting, very interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I want to go back. I want to ask the big question why? The title of your article is Knowledge versus Wisdom - The need for evidence-based coaching in China. Why is there a need for evidence-based coaching in China?

Marjorie Woo:

Well, I think that's my personal journey and that's why I'm a real convert for that, because coaching really stems from communication skills and in the coaching certification process you have different criteria you need to meet there. Basically, you got to lesson, you will ask questions and all of those things that are very clearly stated, and Chinese students are very good about follow the guidelines and doing all that. However, that is only the beginning of coaching and utilizing communication skills they have learned and used in the workplace, but it's not really verbalized or scientifically laid out. Evidence-based coaching happened to be used in coaching, but the concept itself is applicable to every field and particularly in the healthcare industry, because it says that it is a combination of learning about the science of coaching and we practice coaching skills on people that you come in contact with.

Marjorie Woo:

And the third part is the art of coaching. The art of coaching, yes, a large part come from practice and experience, but the basic fundamental I find the evidence-based is, look at the world where we are in today versus a year ago, when the pandemic is over and the society is in total.

Marjorie Woo:

It's a meltdown or revolution. There's more words that's used. Because then the hate for all of us had to encounter another one of those in order to understand that the world is moving consistently, continuously. Things are changing all the time. So just because you're a coach and you learn those five skills doesn't mean everything is that you can use the same five skills. You need to take a look at the context of the country, the culture and your company and your boss. And particularly in multinational companies, working in different cultures and different industries, that the evaluation for Western executives, their profit margin, is part of their evaluation. Not so much in the earlier days in the Chinese companies and even today in the government, banks and government organizations. Those are important, but that's not everything.

Garry Schleifer :

Well, and as it should be really.

Marjorie Woo:

That's true. Yes, so that's what I long for the coaches to understand is you're only embarking on something that you are passionate about and you have done many of those things before in communication skills. I'm sure all the managers have learned that one time or the other. But the question is, how do you kind of combine that with your past experience and where you are now and what's coming into the future?

Garry Schleifer :

Oh yeah.

Marjorie Woo:

That's the relevancy that really makes a difference. Then you'll be able to say, okay, I know this. Where coaching, it's there's all kinds of knowledge and base concepts that you know very rich. And so if you know where coaching comes from, and then you can better apply, in an appropriate situation and to the person that's unique in front of you, so it's not just one. So often I see in China will be okay, here are the skills and you do this and this. You ask questions. When this happens, you do this. But where are those coming from? It is from psychology, positive psychology, all of those signs.

Marjorie Woo:

That is the underpinning of coaching profession. So I'm an advocate and that's why, when I saw evidence based coaching certification at Fielding Graduate University, I said this would be the coaching course that I would like to do. This will be the key to teach and evolve coaching as we should going forward. And the challenge of this also, because you are teaching concept, they're teaching skills and practice. All of that and it's far more investment involved. It may not be as profitable as simple calculation. So it's a decision, it's a choice, it's a conscious choice the organization need to make and also give really appropriate expectation in terms of return point. But in China, as it's been said for hundreds, thousands of years, you plant a tree for 10 years, right?

Marjorie Woo:

And it's 100 years to develop a person and to really the credit of all the practitioners in China, they each are doing what they think is best and making a lot of inroads in their respective areas, and that's the only thing. And I really want to give credit for all the practitioners in China in various schools. And if we could come together and share information to say, okay, that's where we started 25 years ago and this is where we were, you know, 15 years ago.

Marjorie Woo:

This is where we are now, after pandemic. So, going forward, what do we need to do to really make this even more applicable to all your situations? So that's my take, my passion. I go oh, okay, this is a concept that you continue to evaluate and you continue up with new thinking.

Garry Schleifer :

Wow. Well, you know what? In a lot of ways, it's like what we were talking about with the picture behind you. That was 15 years ago. What does it look like now and what will it look like in the future? There are people working on that and you're inviting them to do that, and you know, when you talk about evidence-based coaching, what went through my mind was back to the question that you got asked a lot is how do you know coaching works? Evidence-based coaching is right there for you to help them understand. If they want evidence-based versus contextual or a distinction description, right?

Marjorie Woo:

Also, even if they have learned the skills before, they can also continue to learn the concept and of evidence-based concept to add to their skills. So for the coaches and practitioner for coming years I would encourage for coaches in leadership, you say who you are speaks louder than what you say, right? So as coaches, you have this responsibility to communicate who you are to the people. That so that they can advance in their unique qualities and where they need to go.

Garry Schleifer :

Yeah, no, well said, and thank you again for the article, because it's always insightful to know what's going on in the rest of the world and I think we don't have enough people standing up like yourself and doing that. What else would you like our audience to do as a result of this conversation in your article?

Marjorie Woo:

Okay, what I really like to see the audience to do and there are several organizations around the US, around Canada, around the world, like 13 different countries are now promoting for coaches going forward and really I think you know ICF vision is that coaching is an integral part of a thriving society.

Marjorie Woo:

Because coaching change lives. So and then if we start as coaches, we'll start with ourselves in several parts. One is know yourself. Start spending a little more time who you are and what's your vision and what you want to go and where that can. You will be the right path for you to learn more about yourself. And the second thing is to think In terms of thinking it really is about theories and practice and concepts and learn a little more how coaching come about and coaching as a field has an extremely rich background and so many people have shared their wisdom and practice to come together selflessly to form this profession.

Marjorie Woo:

So, to learn about the concept, to learn about the theories, to learn about practice, that thing practice. Small things.

Garry Schleifer :

The little things no thank you, that's right.

Marjorie Woo:

And then kind of take a look at your own relationship, how things are going and collaborating, and so really take actions that will make a difference. And so that's I kind of divided in different parts. There's like the part one start know yourself, yeah, and part two start- know yourself.

Marjorie Woo:

Yeah, and part two is to know the science. Learn a little more about theory and science and all different ways, and now neuroscience is very popular, so people are learning, which is great, and psychology become popular. They are also learning. So those are the positive things. Learn more about the concept, and evidence-based concept is applicable to everything that you do in every field you are in.

Garry Schleifer :

Good point.

Marjorie Woo:

Yeah, it's ageless really, and that's why it's concept we call it a practice cause.

Garry Schleifer :

We're always working at it.

Marjorie Woo:

Yeah, yeah. The third thing is to know the client. It's oftentimes I see coaches try to remember what they're supposed to say, suppose to write the client sitting in front of them, who they are and what you're saying makes sense to them and I really would support of them. So begin to reflect on those kind of things oh, thank you very much, very wise thank you.

Garry Schleifer :

Thank you, my coaching leader, friend. What's the best way for our audience to reach you, to learn more about you and what you're doing?

Marjorie Woo:

Oh, okay, I am on the board of Keystone Group.

Garry Schleifer :

The Keystone Group. Is that a website? Thekeystonegroup. com?

Marjorie Woo:

Yes, there's a keystone group. cn

Garry Schleifer :

. cn, of course silly me.

Marjorie Woo:

I'm also working very closely with my alma mater Fielding Graduate University, so that we'll collaborate in partnership to develop some psychology courses, neuroscience courses and Masters in Human Development, so that will enrich the coach of personal qualities and knowledge and understanding and through a graduate university with theories and and that that is concrete. So I'm really excited about that. So we will continue to do that.

Garry Schleifer :

Absolutely fabulous having you and talking to you about all of this and to just experiencing your love and passion for coaching for people, coaches and clients. Thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Ppage episode.

Marjorie Woo:

It's delightful working with you and I'm grateful that you took a chance to say okay, I wonder what she has to say.

Garry Schleifer :

And tell other people to contact me, have a conversation, write for choice, don't be afraid.

Garry Schleifer :

We accept articles from around the world and all levels of coaching, and even some non-coaches write for us, can you imagine?

Marjorie Woo:

With that, I think there there will be a coaching conference in China that people come from different places and in the back, so we definitely will share this information and our different practitioners in China and Asia, not just China. Really all the places and they can contribute more to the magazine and to their learning and experiences so we all could be enriched by it.

Garry Schleifer :

Yeah, thank you. Yes, please send us that info and we'll get it out to our audience. Thanks again.

Marjorie Woo:

Will do. Good talking to you.

Garry Schleifer :

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, the one that got you here, probably Apple or Spotify. If you're not a subscriber to choice magazine, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top corner or by going to choice-online. com and clicking the sign up now button.

Garry Schleifer :

Thanks again Marjorie.

Marjorie Woo:

we're also introducing the Choice choice to the practitioners in the conference.

Garry Schleifer :

Awesome. Let me know how we can help. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.