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Episode 116: Transformative Coaching Education: Embracing Inclusivity and Ethical Practices with guests Chariti Gent and Annette Siewertsen

• Garry Schleifer

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Master Certified Coach Chariti Gent and Executive Coach Annette Siewertsen join us to uncover the art of effective coaching education, as well as the hidden skills that make a great educator. Through their insightful article, "What Makes a Good Educator: Six Essential Skills and Best Practices," they share their personal journeys and the significance of adopting a learner's mindset. Expect to hear about the transformative power of humility and curiosity in teaching diverse groups, and gain invaluable wisdom whether you're a seasoned coach or just starting your journey in professional coaching programs.

We embark on an enlightening discussion about the escalating integration of culture, diversity, and systemic inequities in coaching education. Chariti and Annette help us navigate these complex waters, emphasizing the necessity of inclusive environments and cultural humility. The dialogue extends to the contrasting landscapes of Canadian and American coaching practices, including Indigenous land acknowledgments and neurodiversity considerations. Listen as we tackle the resistance some students might exhibit and explore how organizations like ICF are balancing inclusivity with upholding professional standards.

To round off the episode, we delve into the ethical challenges in coaching, shedding light on the importance of trauma-informed coaching. Our guests passionately argue for the need for diversity within leadership roles and representation in coaching environments. As we share personal experiences, the conversation urges the coaching community to embrace ongoing learning and the technological innovations transforming the field. This episode promises to inspire anyone passionate about the continuous evolution of coaching education, urging listeners to embrace unlearning and relearning as pathways to growth.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Chariti Gent.

Learn more about Annette Siewertsen.

Link to ICF Engage for podcast.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to the choice Magazine podcast Beyond the Page, the official podcast of Choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, ary Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles, have a chat with the brilliant authors behind them and in this case they're on either side of me and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. This is your go-to resource for all things coaching. Let's dive in.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's episode, I'm speaking with Master Certified Coach Charit Gent and Executive Coach Annette Siewertsen, who are the authors of an article in our latest issue "Coaching Education in Flux - The Ongoing Evolution of a Dynamic Field, which, it is for sure. The article is entitled what Makes a Good Educator Six Essential Skills and Best Practices. Charity Gent is the Director of professional coaching education at the University of Wisconsin, where she directs the portfolio of coaching education programming, including the Level Two Certified Professional Coach Program, The Skills Sharpener Series of Group Mentoring and The Leader As Coach - A Framework for Coaching and Organizations, awesome. She received her formal training and certification at the same place I did. The Coactive Training Institute.

Chariti Gent:

I didn't know you were CTI.

Garry Schleifer:

We got along. Did you do leadership?

Chariti Gent:

I did not, although I've always thought it would be a brilliant thing to do.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, I'm still connected with my people from 09.

Chariti Gent:

Oh, wow, yeah, I actually have a call right after this with one of my classmates from 09. Same thing.

Garry Schleifer:

Brilliant. See, we all stick together. You became a Master Certified Coach in 2020. You're serving as Ambassador for Coaching Education for the North America, Latin America and Caribbean regions of the ICF and you're a member of the ICF Global Accredention

Chariti Gent:

The Accreditation Advisory Committee.

Garry Schleifer:

Annette, on the other hand, is a CEC and a PCC, and she is a Learning and Development Advisor with a Graduate Certificate in Executive Coaching. I'm guessing that's what the CEC is right?

Annette Siewertsen:

That's right. Certified executive coach

Garry Schleifer:

Where'd you get that one from? Is that Royal Roads? Canadian University, go Canada. We just name countries, so we don't name our mascots, okay? So she's a graduate in the Advanced Coaching Practices and has an MA in Executive and Organizational Coaching Programs at Royal Roads University. She completed her graduate certificate in Executive Coaching, hence the CEC in 2012, and is currently completing her MA in Executive Organizational Coaching. Good for you. Annette serves as the ICF Global Knowledge Community Co-Leader for the North America, Latin American, Caribbean regions. Thank you so much both for joining us and thank you so much for being so generous with your time for the International Coaching Federation and everything that gets done there. Can't happen without us volunteers, right?

Annette Siewertsen:

That's right.

Chariti Gent:

Takes the village. Thank you, Thanks for having us.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah well, I'm thrilled because it's an excellent article and I can't wait to delve into it. I have a few questions of my own, but I want to ask what inspired you to write this article at this time and how the two of you figure out you wanted to do it together.

Chariti Gent:

This is charity. I saw that choice put out a basically request for ideas that we might want to contribute to this edition that was going to be coming out around coaching education and because Annette and I have worked so closely together and have a fabulous working relationship through our ICF Global Coach Knowledge Community, I just reached out to her, knowing she was at Royal Roads doing much the same thing I'm doing here at the UW Madison, and I just said hey, you want to co-author an article?

Garry Schleifer:

Just like that, yeah, and here they are, listen to this folks. This is how easy it is to get published in choice. Find someone that you love working with, pick a topic and dive on in.

Garry Schleifer:

And here they are. So thank you so much for that. Amazing article. Like I said, can't wait to get into it. But you know, you give six essential skills and best practices. But what's the one thing you must focus on to be successful in coaching education? And I'll let both of you answer that one separately, each of you. Oh, she's pointing at you, Annette.

Annette Siewertsen:

Alrighty. Actually, this article really, really makes me reflect on what are we not saying, right? What's missing? So we always have a diverse group of students, constantly. Every single cohort is different, right? So you know what's? What are we? What do we need to pay attention to while we're engaging with all these students?

Chariti Gent:

Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more and I would say that I think it's that always be learning piece that is so key. That was one of the things we said in the article and I think that goes right to your point in that always be learning ourselves, always stay humble and be learning.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, that's a good addition. Always stay humble and be learning and open to learning. And you know it's funny, you say that and I was reading it and I'm like, well, we already are. And then I remember you were talking about training and educating new students, so reminding them of what are the things that makes us successful is a continuous learning. Because we talk about continuous learning all the time. We were at the conference together. You know, there we go. Most important piece of advice you give someone who's starting a professional coaching program or an established one.

Chariti Gent:

Yeah. So if I was starting a coach training program I don't know, Annette, what's coming to your mind if you were starting one?

Annette Siewertsen:

I would say staying in learner's mindset, yeah.

Annette Siewertsen:

Staying in curiosity, again, always learning, yeah. What more do we need to know? What more can we share? Because knowledge is only useful when shared.

Chariti Gent:

Yeah, and I think, too, like one of the first moves I would make, or tell someone to make, would be to, to that end, to join the coach. Here's our plug, join the community.

Chariti Gent:

I mean, there's such a tremendous amount of information, it's almost overwhelming but you'll get a ton of advice from fellow coach educators through the discussion boards, through the library of resources, and you'll just start to forge and create connections with others who are doing what you're doing, because it's not like there's a million of us out there. We're small but mighty and continuing to grow as a coach educator community and there's just so much to know. So lean in and lean on those of us who come before you. It's a very generous community in terms of sharing knowledge and information.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, communities in general are very collaborative, supportive. We're not competitive. Well, you know, when one rises, we all rise. You know Exactly.

Annette Siewertsen:

Yeah, yeah, well and to that point too, is that we've got other regions too right. So, yes, interacting with our NALAC the North America, Latin American, Caribbean but we've also got two other regions that we do interact together with in these communities, whether it's on the forums, attending their discovery series, which could be a guest speaker. It could be something to learn. We were doing competencies, about to do another one this month, and it's a real nice way for coaching educators to engage with each other, to learn, like Chariti has said, but also perhaps un learning a little bit too. You know, things are always evolving with the International Coaching Federation as well as with coaching education.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, and education in general.

Garry Schleifer:

I mean, one of your points is, educate yourself in curriculum development and instructional design. I'm like, okay, that's got to be changing, like crazy, AI and and all that sort of stuff and you match that with how much we've evolved as coaches. How much wiser the consumer is on what to look for, what to expect, ROI, good coaches, bad coaching, et cetera. So, yeah, well, and that brings me to so how's AI impacting coaching education?

Annette Siewertsen:

Yeah, I think that's a whole other discussion. I don't know what's happening. I mean it's not going away right. Are we implementing it? We're not yet. I'm curious and I'd love to learn more about other schools that are. I mean it's here, so I shouldn't say we are not. I mean we are exploring different things.

Garry Schleifer:

Something as simple as transcripts. Come on, I mean, that's basically augmented AI. Another school I did work with used something called RayNotes.

Annette Siewertsen:

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer:

And you could, you could, you listen to, transcribe, you listen to and tagged what you, what you heard as core competencies and the different levels, you know the different markers and all that sort of stuff.

Chariti Gent:

Yeah, I played with RayNotes a little bit and I think we've decided not to adopt it yet. However, we're kind of starting to look at ways in which it can be integrated for things like a RayNotes and it seems perhaps that for us it might be a good thing to use for the final performance evaluation. It could help to increase or speed up the time that it takes to evaluate, but you still have to have, of course, the human element to go back through and make sure that everything is the way you think it should be?

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, and that's the thing about AI. You know, even talking into this crazy thing, I struggle to get the AI to. First of all, you have to be careful about your question. You have to be very, you know, expansive and you know how to prompt it, and but in the end to your point, in the end, it still requires you to go. Is that really what I wanted to know? Is that my voice, if you're doing emails and stuff like that, and it still, at this point, still requires that finesse to make it you.

Chariti Gent:

Yeah, you know I've been encouraging our students to go in and my faculty to go in and play with some of these platforms that are doing AI coaching, just to kind of get a feel for it. That's sort of been our goal this year in terms of how do we integrate this in our curriculum. There are various platforms out there which will automate the AI process and what I find is that it is so powerful at a very basic level for what I would call transactional coaching. If you want to get into true transformational coaching, the AI is not there yet. That's why I think people worry are coaches going to go away? Not anytime soon. Humans have a certain way of reasoning and feeling and being that just simply cannot be replicated by that AI, at least at this point. But I encourage people to go in and play around with the different platforms out there that will coach you. You can set up a free account on a lot of them and just play for 15 minutes and see what comes back. It's really quite fascinating.

Garry Schleifer:

he, I totally agree with that.

Annette Siewertsen:

I do agree with Chariti, because coaching has brought the art of conversation back. So AI, it's artificial, right, it's not human, it's not one of us speaking to each other. So I agree, Chariti, coaching is not going away, because you need that that being, that sense of being and that empathy and, you know, just creating that safe space. How does AI create a safe space?

Chariti Gent:

Right, and I mean, I think, with the empathy thing, what's fascinating is that the AI will often come back with, oh, that must be hard for you. How do you want to x, y, z? So then you say, you know, you type in your answer and then it'll come back and say, oh, that sounds distressing, how do you want to act on this? The empathy is built in in the words, but not in the feeling behind them. With a level, there's no level three going on.

Garry Schleifer:

Good point. Good point. It handles Level one and Level two, but not three. Interesting because I met a couple of guys at the conference, at the Midwest Regional ICF conference, and they're creating a mini me, if you will. So there's me, the coach, but there's an AI version of me which is going to be used as a marketing tool and it's going to train based on how I coach, and I'm going to watch the transcripts and I'm going to look at it. So I'm going to work with it to teach it how to coach, like me, and, yes, it will be transactional, but it'll also lead to other clients. So democratization of coaching is needed. I mean, let's face it, there's 9 billion people plus on the planet and how many coaches are there?

Chariti Gent:

So and it's expensive. This helps to kind of keep for some people, keep it accessible.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Switching topics. One more thing. So another gentleman who I think we know, Chariti, at least from the conference, Jonathan Reitz, he's been playing with all of that, so if anybody wants to know, reach out to him. He's got some, some. I don't know if there's some information sessions or coaching training on augmented AI, which augmented means it supports the coach and the client, versus generative, which is what I was talking about a little bit more on the learning and growth side, the part we fear because of things like the matrix et cetera.

Chariti Gent:

Is Jonathan the one then that does the mini avatar of you, or is that Alex Morelli? Was it Morelli?

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, you're talking about R-E-S-P-E-C-T Respect. Respect is Owl Hub and it's David Morelli.

Chariti Gent:

That's it, Owl Hub. Is that the one that's the mini-me avatar king of thing?

Garry Schleifer:

No, that's Amigo. That was the next booth over. Sorry, we're reminiscing here. We are meeting this afternoon to talk about it. So I'm gonna dive in and see what it can do. Yeah, I'm diving in because somebody else is already doing it and I don't want them to be the only one out in the field. So so there's my competitive streak coming up.

Annette Siewertsen:

It's not going away. Yeah, exactly.

Garry Schleifer:

And it's been here for a long time. I mean, just look at Zoom. It's been augmented with AI for ages. They're throwing more stuff all the time.

Chariti Gent:

As trainers too, I think about like you could bring in the AI to enhance the training of questions.

Garry Schleifer:

What do you think LMS is? It's basically a form of AI, ai, those little chat bots that you have when you've got a problem with something. Customer customer service that they're doing all of that and then they're going, would Would you like to speak to a live agent? See what the skip the live the human.

Garry Schleifer:

Yes, I prefer to speak to a live agent. See what?

Garry Schleifer:

I prefer to talk to a human, to be honest, but I'm old school and maybe the young ones, maybe the young ones. Anyway, switching gears, I want to get on. So I'm torn between how to ask this question. So I'm going to say it and then I'm going to repeat it. With the two different ways, one word change. How are issues like culture, diversity and systemic inequities being left out of coaching education conversations? And why are issues like culture, diversity and systemic inequities being left out of coaching education conversations?

Annette Siewertsen:

I well, for me I think that they're becoming more and more prevalent in coaching conversations now. It's big, it's such an awareness, right, that inclusive feel, the community that we have of coaches. I know that we are bringing more awareness. I mean, I don't train students per se, I lead the, the deliveries of our coaching programs. Yeah, to Roll Roads and it's just such a huge topic now so we do include it in our pre-residency with different ways of learnings. You know, students that are not speaking as much, you know, trying to incorporate them, but in a respectful way, right. So, having just setting out that, that psychological safety per se, I guess for everybody in the room, including instructors.

Garry Schleifer:

Would you say it's also because it got a bit more prevalent or a bit more focused on that in the revised competencies?

Annette Siewertsen:

Yeah, it is part of coaching. It's the being.

Chariti Gent:

Well, and I think to the why question, it wasn't part of coaching for a very long time and, in fact, I think there was a bit of a resistance against bringing it into as being sort of the cauldron in which everything sits within coaching, and it wasn't until those 2019 competencies came out with the client context and client identity being a big part of understanding the coaching relationship and the client themselves, has really driven a lot of it. I think there's a lot of how to be figured out yet. How do you bring diversity, equity, systemic ideas into coaching education? I mean, for us, we redesigned our entire curriculum, centering cultural humility at the core. Did we get it right? No, of course not.

Chariti Gent:

Every year, we're tweaking and changing and trying to bring in different voices non-Western, non-white alternative kinds of media right, like not the same stuff that we've all been seeing forever and it takes time. It just takes a lot of time, which is we're willing to put in the effort, but it's a work in progress always.

Annette Siewertsen:

And students only see what we offer, what we deliver. So even though there's work going on behind the scenes for a cohort that's coming up, this cohort may not quite be where, you know what I mean. Like there's, always we're always improving as well. We look at every evaluation and we try to incorporate what we can. Some things we can't because it's university, so it's through academic steps, but it's one of those things that we're never going to have it right. We can't, you'll never be able to please everybody.

Chariti Gent:

Yeah, I find it fascinating that some of the resistance we actually have encountered comes from our own students who go through our programs and are like why is this part of a coaching curriculum? I don't understand. So it is overcoming some of that. It is not overcoming finding and sourcing and bringing in to the curriculum but it's also how is it received? And getting students past the hump of opening up their own awareness to try to begin to understand and empathize.

Annette Siewertsen:

I'd be curious if there's a difference between the Canadian and the American.

Garry Schleifer:

Canadian American, which part?

Annette Siewertsen:

The cultural pieces and even the diversity aspects of how we feel because Indigenous lands are really big for us, like it's just something that we take very seriously. Land acknowledgements, our students ask for it. Some students don't want it all the time. Like it's again a work in progress. Yeah, because it's different for everybody. But I'm wondering the context of the diversity with the American students and our Canadian coaching educators. You know, I'd be curious to see what the differences are because I think they're different lenses.

Garry Schleifer:

If if you want to get, I was driving a lot to a conference and back and I was listening to Robin D'Angelo's White . and she clearly points out when it's a difference between the that's something that's more commonly known in the US versus in other parts of the world, so that's a source that she's aware of the differences and points them out in her .. Yeah, I thought I'd read it before, but I must've been dreaming it, because when I listened to that I was just like blown away. One quick question for this is for a friend of mine. This came up when I was preparing for a call today. She's neurodiverse and she's struggling with preparing for her PCC assessment and apparently there's no consideration for neurodiverse challenges. What's your feeling on that and what help can I offer her direction?

Chariti Gent:

, well, I know the ICF is working on creating accommodations for diverse neurodiverse individuals. You can always ask for accommodations prior to taking the assessment, or so I understand. I also will give a huge shout out to Carrie Abner at ICF, vice Vice President of Credentialing and Standards.

Chariti Gent:

She is completely aware of all of these issues and is working very hard to find the balance between really honoring all of the different needs of the learners and test takers with raising the bar on the credibility of our profession globally, and so those aren't mutually exclusive. It's challenging a lot of times.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh yeah, because, like autism, it's a spectrum. Right, neurodiversity is a spectrum. It's not black or white, it's this huge cloud of gray in a way, like it's don't get me wrong. It's very clear for the person that's going through it. But how does how does even that not just coach educators, but assessors in the assessment system accommodate this? So I will make sure. I thought she had said something about accommodations and did not get the response she was expecting, so I'm going to send her to that source.

Garry Schleifer:

Worthwhile, even for the podcast.

Annette Siewertsen:

There you go.

Garry Schleifer:

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Annette Siewertsen:

They do listen, for sure. The ICS staff is Amazing.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, and you talk about diversity, equity, inclusion in the culture section. What should trainers be thinking about learning? Where should they get learning on neurodiversity, or would we just put that under them? Do we put that under the category of continuous learning and put it under culture?

Annette Siewertsen:

Yes, and. We're always learning right and it is part of the world now and we're looking today.

Annette Siewertsen:

I mean, we're talking about what's what's you know what makes a good coaching educator, but also what's what's missing.

Annette Siewertsen:

You know what are we not hearing or seeing or saying? And I think that comes with part of that too. So even at the very onset, you know, we ask learning styles, just in a forum, just to see what our students learning styles. Because they may not know that we have resources that we can reach out to our accessibility services and set up a plan with them. But if they're not aware, it's like us, we don't know what we don't know. So putting it out there and inviting them to engage in a conversation about it creates that safe space for those that want to engage, or it prompts them to reach out to us individually as a coaching educator or coaching education staff to guide them and hold their hand to get the help to be successful in coach training. yeah,

Chariti Gent:

And, you know, you can get some of those resources in places like the ICF Discovery Series that is done by the different regions every single month.

Chariti Gent:

You can attend. I've attended webinars before through the Institute of Coaching that talk about neurodiversity. The EMCC puts on things. There was one that just came through, maybe two months ago this summer, about neurodiversity and how to manage it in a coaching relationship, so you just have to do a little bit of Googling and a lot of stuff will come back at you. If you truly want to educate yourself about it, you can. It's out there.

Chariti Gent:

It's definitely out there.

Annette Siewertsen:

And the Global Education Forum is a plethora of conversations. You can sort it by topic as well. There's articles in the library, there's a resource library. It's getting people engaged right and having those conversations and feeling safe to have those conversations.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, if you do me a huge favor, when we're done this recording, let us know and we'll put it in the notes below the recording how to get into that channel. All right, awesome. Another big question, sort of in the same realm, but are there important emotional or ethical challenges in coaching we're not addressing in our coach training programs?

Annette Siewertsen:

Ethics is everywhere, it is everywhere everywhere.

Annette Siewertsen:

Yeah, everything we say, everything we do, and just you know, being really mindful of what are we saying, what are we doing? Um, knowing the differences as well. There's another thing with now we've got, you know, trauma informed coaching. So, as coaches, we're coaches. We're not trained as therapists, right? However, there's so much of this going on right now. So I think, ethically, we have a commitment to our coaching community to be sure that we are speaking and writing, and yeah and from the.

Chariti Gent:

DEI lens too right. Absolutely, you can't talk the talk of the importance of context and identity if you're not creating accessible structures for people to walk through in order to even arrive at a place where they can get trained and or be coached.

Annette Siewertsen:

And feeling belonged in a coaching conversation or in a coach training class or in on a team or a triad. You know that sense of belonging to ensure that that's happening.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, that's I. Wow. I can't believe I forgot the word belonging in the DEI section of this conversation. I did, and I didn't, because what was going through my head is whenever I'm in a group, I always look and say, is this a diverse group? And if not, why not? And not from a finger pointing, but more from a well, you know, what could I have done?

Chariti Gent:

Curiosity.

Garry Schleifer:

Right, curiosity. And then the other question I always ask is, when I do have a diverse group, is what is being presented or what I'm presenting? Can they see themselves in this? Those are two of the questions, and this came up a few years ago with our board. Our board was totally white women and me and I pointed it out and just put it right out there and said, okay, we're not representative of the world and coaching at large and we put forward some. There are qualified people out there. There was no reason why we were like we were and fast forward. We're no longer that and we're still looking for editorial board members. We'd like to have a few younger people out there who are listening. Please don't feel you have to be an expert in coaching in order to be on the editorial board, nor do you need to be an editor. You need to be involved in the coaching community enough to say I'd like to participate in that conversation.

Chariti Gent:

That's great.

Garry Schleifer:

And students know, yeah and and reach out to me, and if they ever say, oh well, he's probably way too busy, go, unless them off and go. Unless you have access to his calendar, you do not know if he's busy or not busy. Too many people say that to me and I'm like oh, oh, I let you in on my calendar? When did that happen?

Chariti Gent:

Well, we know what a dynamic and rock star you are, so we all just assume you're busy, you know doing your thing all over.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, as are you, and I'm thankful that you two were able to take the time and write the article and be here for the podcast and help go deeper with this conversation. I think it's like you say it's always evolving. We're unlearning and relearning. We've got technical stuff you even pointed out technological know-how and it's six balls. I'm sure that you could come up with a few more, but we only had so much space in the magazine. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation?

Chariti Gent:

Well, I'd love to see them check out the Engage community from ICF. That's the Global Coach Knowledge Community and get involved in that if they're a coaching educator and if they are a student, to please continue on their growth and learning journey by getting involved with things like the ICF, going to conferences, always be learning, always, always, always be learning. I don't know if you would agree with that, Annette, or have other things to add. That's what comes to my mind right away.

Annette Siewertsen:

Absolutely, and also being curious about their local chapters, you know, and what events they're holding and just building those networks and like-minded people. Like Garry had said earlier, it's not competitive, it's a community. We are all here to support each other, which is one of the best. I just I love coaching. I mean, I live, breathe, eat coaching. So it's who I be and I think that you know the more we can talk about it, and it is still a fairly new profession.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, 25, 30 years.

Chariti Gent:

Yeah, 30 years. I think this year, in fact. ICF, anyways ICF's 30th anniversary coming up, if not already this year? Yeah, 25, I think yeah.

Garry Schleifer:

Well to both of you and for those listening. I am looking for my next ICF volunteer opportunity at an international level, so if there's a place you think I can fit in, let me know.

Chariti Gent:

I'm sure coaching education would love to have your input. well

Garry Schleifer:

I'm not a coach educator but I'm interested if they are. So I don't know what they need.

Chariti Gent:

They to tell us who who in the coaching in the ICF family uh, you know special special knowledge.

Annette Siewertsen:

It's a wonderful community to volunteer with. like

Garry Schleifer:

Like we say to our coaches, keep asking questions because that's basically the part of the job. Powerful questions. Thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode, Annette, Chariti. So great to have you here, so knowledgeable, so connected, and thank you, thank you.

Garry Schleifer:

Thank you so much, yeah that's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe to your favorite podcast app. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine, you can sign up for a free digital issue by, let's see if I get this right. No, dang these reverse screens. By scanning the QR code in the top right corner of this screen or by going to choice-online. com and clicking the sign Up Now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thanks again.