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Episode 117: Transforming Coaching with Technology: AI, Ethics, and Future Trends with guest, Jonathan Passmore

• Garry Schleifer

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What if the world of coaching could be transformed by technology? Join us as we sit down with Jonathan Passmore, a distinguished professor of coaching, to uncover the seismic shifts happening in the industry, largely driven by digital and AI advancements. From the rapid pivot to online coaching platforms during the pandemic to the rise of AI-driven coach bots, Jonathan shares his personal journey through these changes, offering a unique perspective on how both coaches and clients have adapted. Our conversation highlights the crucial evolution needed in coach education to keep pace with technological advancements, ensuring that professionals are well-equipped to navigate this new landscape.

We also explore the ethical dilemmas and privacy concerns that come with integrating AI into coaching, pondering the implications of licensing public figures as virtual coaches. Jonathan and I discuss the potential of virtual reality as a future game-changer in coaching, despite current adoption challenges. Through our exploration of platforms like Zoom and vibrant communities such as Ezra, we reveal how professional coaching programs are not just creating coaches but skilled individuals who can integrate coaching into organizational structures. With a keen eye on the future, we unpack the sophisticated understanding buyers now have of coaching's value and its seamless integration with other developmental interventions.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Jonathan Passmore.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Gary Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles. Have a chat with the brilliant author, e's over there on my screen whatever behind them and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. Join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives. This is your go-to resource for all things coaching. Let's dive in.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's episode I'm speaking with Professor of Coaching, Jonathan Passmore, who's the author of an article in our latest issue, which I already have, I don't know if you have yours yet, "Coaching Education in Flux the On-Going Evolution of a Dynamic Field." His article is entitled the Future of Coach Education Adapting to the Digital and AI Transformation.

Garry Schleifer:

A little bit about Jonathan. He has a Doctorate of Occupational Psychology, an MBA, an MSC, a BA, a BSC, an FBPS, an MC and a PCC and a Partridge in a pear tree, is the professor of coaching at Henley Business School UK, Senior Vice President of Ezra Coaching, and still finds time to run his own coaching business. He's previously worked for PricewaterhouseCoopers and the Itty Bitty Machine Company, IBM. He published widely more than 40 books including Becoming a Coach ~ The Essential ICF Guide, and soon to be published, Becoming a Team Coach ~ The Essential ICF Guide. I hear a pattern, plus 250 scientific articles and book chapters, making him one of the most published coaching researchers in the world, as well as here at choice Magazine, again. He's listed in the Global Gurus and Thinkers 50 Coach Lists. Thank you so much for joining me again, Jonathan. Awesome.

Jonathan Passmore:

Garry, it's a pleasure, always a pleasure.

Garry Schleifer:

So who do you think might be publishing more than you?

Jonathan Passmore:

Oh, there's lots of people doing great work.

Garry Schleifer:

In coaching research?

Jonathan Passmore:

In coaching. So David Clutterbuck, I think he's done 75 books. I can't keep up with him.

Garry Schleifer:

Wow.

Jonathan Passmore:

There are other great people out there. Eric DeHaan doing some really interesting work, Rebecca Jones doing some interesting work, Nikki Treblanche in AI doing some great work. So there is a whole host of people in this field who are writing and researching. Some of them like to do books and book chapters. Some of them prefer to write articles. Some of them are earlier in their career. Some of us are towards the other end of our careers, but there's lots of really exciting stuff going on.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, no kidding. Thank you and thanks for continuing to write for choice. It's our pleasure to have you published in our magazine and have you here to speak more about, as they say, beyond the page.

Jonathan Passmore:

It's great. I'm really looking forward to chatting to you about coach education and how it's changing, evolving, or should be changing and evolving.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, ok, hold on. What do you mean should be?

Jonathan Passmore:

Wow. So I think that the coaching industry is really changing very rapidly at the moment and that has been happening at an explosive rate since COVID and pre-COVID, 2012, 2014 let's say doing face-to-face work. Some people in North America were doing phone coaching, but there were very few people who were doing both audio and visual coaching. It was a rarity. Certainly, in my own practice, I was getting on a train or a bus, going to meet people, get on the tube, go to their office, do a coaching session, maybe go to the next coaching session, go home. It was face-to-face predominantly and that started to change slowly during the 2010s. We went through '14 '15. I had a skype account sometime in that '13 '14. Remember that?

Garry Schleifer:

I remember Skype. It rings a bell. I don't use it much anymore.

Jonathan Passmore:

And so we went through and then some of us got Zoom. I don't know whenever that was 15, 16, 17. And we started to do a bit of work and I was blending. Most people I knew still predominantly were doing face to face. Some people were mixing it as I was. Then we got to 2020 and there was an explosion. An explosion in terms of practice because many of us were locked down. We couldn't go out and meet people face to face. Organizations closed their face to face delivery, visitors coming in, even if essential staff were still in the office.

Jonathan Passmore:

So many of us gravitated 100 percent to doing online and we suddenly discovered hey, this is okay, this is all right, it's super convenient. I can do three or four or five calls in a day. Clients seem to like the convenience. And actually what we're also seeing is the emergence of platforms and global providers. Enterprise organizations love platforms because, instead of having, if they've got, 40 countries or 50 countries or 60 countries, where they're operating with 60 groups of coaches with no data and no feedback because it's all one-to-one or personal in the office all different platforms, all higgledy-piggledy, as we might say here in the UK. Suddenly you can bring it together as an enterprise organization. One contract, all time zones, multiple languages, 1,000 or 10,000 managers as many as you like and deliver it with the data, with the convenience and with the cost saving that economies of scale have offered.

Jonathan Passmore:

And so what we've seen is a blossoming of Ezra coaching and some of the other platforms, and also many of us who continue to do small amounts of work as sole practitioners. We are continuing to work online, so online has become the go-to for delivery of coaching. I was never taught how to do online coaching. No one's run a formal course around that. What should I be thinking about? What are some of the issues? And then the second thing that's been happening and for many coaches, it is terrifying, the emergence of the bots. Yes, AI.

Jonathan Passmore:

Robots are coming to take our jobs. Maybe they are, maybe they're not, or certainly AI generative coaching bots have emerged. There are a growing number of providers, some small, but growing in scale and scope and capability, and this, too, has implications. It has implications for coaches. Do we have jobs in the future? I think the answer is yes. I think that AI is going to be a great tool for us to add to what we do.

Jonathan Passmore:

But no one's been taught, or very few people have been taught, what is this generative AI stuff? And when I understand it then I'm less scared of it. And secondly, when I understand it, I can start to deploy it as a tool like a computer was a tool that certainly, when I started my career back in 1982, was my first job. We didn't have computers. We had a blotting pad on the desk and you got allocated a pen when you started, not a laptop. And now I couldn't think about working without a computer.

Jonathan Passmore:

And I'm sure in the next 10, 20, 30 years, generative AI will become a tool like a computer, like many other tools that we use to enhance humans in the work that we do, improve our efficiency, improve our effectiveness, improve the quality of the work that we do, but no one, very few people, are teaching coaches about these two aspects that have revolutionized coaching over the last five years. And so, when I say should do I think we need to be moving away from coach competencies. Important that they are, we need to be adding to those. How do coaches leverage technology to provide the service, a better service, to their clients.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, no kidding. And my goodness, I'm listening to you and you've come a long way since 2014 of getting on the tube and on the train. Not only have you moved forward, you're also the Vice President of Ezra which is a platform that I'm also a coach on. So, wow, you've really moved fast.

Jonathan Passmore:

And how do you like that, Gary, I'm turning the tables on you now.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh yeah no, worries, you know what I really love it because, to be honest, I don't have to do the marketing. As you know, I'm working on choice magazine, so I split my time between choice and doing joyful exercises like recording podcasts with my favorite people and interviewing people that are potential writers for choice magazine. So I'm having a blast and, you know, right after this call, I have a platform call and I don't have to get on the tube or the train or anything and I absolutely love it. So, and just to confirm, I love working with Ezra. It's great community, lots of possibility. I've been, I've been to the Toronto office a few times for events, so, yeah, and I think I met the bigwig. What was his name? Nick, Yeah, Nick. He's a great guy.

Garry Schleifer:

He was there, uh, for a while at the Christmas gathering last fall. So, yeah, no, it's great. I really do love it and I love platform work. I think I was doing it in 2014 already, but you're right, I think it was with Skype and things like that. But you know, definitely when Zoom came on board, I was like I was all over it. Now you talk about education in the article and changing roles. Like that, an instructor has to also be a technical. Like maybe there's two different places. Like, is that the only place that you're seeing a change in careers in coaching, or are there some things outside of that as well?

Jonathan Passmore:

That's a great question and I think what we're beginning to see and this I think will grow over the next decade is that people who complete professional programs in coaching particularly those people who come to places like Henley Business School or do university programs and there are some great programs around the world. Colleagues at New York University and Columbia and Fielding doing some great work. In these programs what I'm beginning to see is that people are not just training to be a coach, but they're often attracted to go and work in the opportunities that platforms offer. So there are a whole range of customer service roles, in marketing and communications, in labs, doing evaluations and implementations. So people are starting to move into the roles to apply their coaching skills to help clients understand and optimize the deployment of coaching. And then there are roles on the other side, so these are sort of supplier roles and then there are buyer roles. So I'm noticing, particularly in larger enterprise organizations, individuals who themselves have completed coach training now being the buyers.

Jonathan Passmore:

And if we look back 10 years ago, my criticism of buyers then was many people were very immature.

Jonathan Passmore:

They didn't know what they were buying. They didn't know what good looked like. I think that has changed over the last three, four, five years and the increasingly buyers are more sophisticated. They understand what coaching is, they understand how it adds value to their business, they understand how they need to integrate it with other behavioral change and personal development interventions. They understand often about evaluation, what are the evaluation metrics that they should be looking at and increasingly they're learning the science so they can then deploy that science and the data that they're getting from platforms to help convince more senior leaders, who may be less familiar with coaching, to increase the investment because of the return it gives to the business in terms of people development, stability and wellbeing and improvements in performance. So I see that the coaching industry is evolving. We're not just training coaches. We're now training people who can manage the coaching process, help the development of coaching cultures and the deployment of coaching, and people who are in businesses at the sharp end working to integrate coaching with the other people development interventions that they have procured.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, and you know it's interesting you use the word platform and you and I both know what's really behind. It sounds too not subtle, too plain to call it a platform. There's a machine behind all of that. There's a machine to support the coaches, there's a machine to understand coaching, there's a machine, as you said, to capture data, dashboards back to the clients. This is a very, I'll use Ezra as an example, a very robust global system that serves the clients, the coaches and, to your point, the purchasers of coaching. It kind of makes it easy. So it just seems too simple a word to say platforms.

Jonathan Passmore:

Well, yeah, and you're right, it's a machine. And what are we doing now? We're talking on a machine connecting across an ocean down a piece of string to be able to see each other, talk to each other, laugh with each other on this call. Machines have become part of the way that we work and this technological revolution is continuing to help us, as mankind, to progress and add value to the work that we do.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Jonathan, one of the things that came to mind for me and I was just at a conference and I'll tell you a little bit more about that. But AI obviously is popping up everywhere, but we've been using it for years. And to your point, people need to know more about it. But my question to you is what are we already using that's considered AI that coaches are using that are just take for granted now?

Jonathan Passmore:

Well, that's a great question and I don't know the answer to that, Garry. I mean, I hear film platforms some of the most popular film platforms are using AI to identify what my references are, and I've heard some of those film platforms boast about how clever those technologies are and my experience and I don't know whether there's any truth or how much truth is, and whether that's a script-based or a generative AI or how much it's integrated but it seems to recommend more popular shows rather than the weird sort of shows that I tend to like, which often are comedies and British comedies. So it's not always as advanced and maybe it's not as integrated in some tools as it's claimed. I also think that there are other examples in terms of transport apps, where , again, AI is claimed to be part of that, and those tools seem to work phenomenally well.

Jonathan Passmore:

Now again, I don't know how much truth or how much generative AI sits behind some of those transportation platforms, but then my experience seems to be quite varied in some of the apps and the technologies that I use. Some seem to work very well and they may or may not have AI. What I think we need to be doing is being more ethical in our deployment of AI so we move away from the froth and the claim, the claim that, oh, this is great, it's got generative AI in it.

Jonathan Passmore:

That may be good, it may be bad, because what we know from actually much of the research. There's a great paper that was written by colleagues at Harvard Business School about the jagged edge of technology, a jagged edge of AI, and it's quite difficult to predict. Some areas it can be really brilliant and add value. In other areas, hallucination and other problems get in the way, which means it's really bad.

Jonathan Passmore:

So I think we as humanity, as users, as coaches, as managers, need to figure out where am I best using this particular tool to add value, and that's back to the education piece and the willingness for us, as coaches or leaders or other users, to experiment with it. And secondly, to be really clear about where generative AI is being used. So users understand yes, this tool is being used, it's not used as marketing fluff. This is where we and are you happy to engage in using this tool, knowing the generative AI is there, so that ethical process is there, and by experiencing it, by testing it, we can then start to become better informed and better able to judge where we deploy it to add real value. Yeah, thank you.

Garry Schleifer:

And you spoke well about that in the article ethical and privacy concerns. So and that seems to be a common topic it's like where's it being used, how's it being used? But that's the same thing for any coaching conversation or data. It's like that should be known, but let's just keep bringing it up and keep it on the forefront. So I'm working with this group and I'm noticing anytime I deal with AI. I'm not afraid of it, because every time I deal with it, it still requires me to do something. It's not 100% foolproof, exact in my tone whatever, there's always something else it needs. Over to you.

Jonathan Passmore:

Absolutely right, and you you have identified that there are out there in the marketplace, companies who are starting to offer coach bots for us as individual coaches that you can deploy yourself 24/ 7 and they'll either have your image that creates as a graphic avatar, but we're not very far away from the photorealistic codex. So, if you catch the Max Friedman show and the Mark Zuckerberg interview, there's a photorealistic codex so scans you 3D and then creates you as an avatar, but it looks just like you. You put your VR glasses on but it could be 2D as well and that avatar behaves just like you do. You've got the move of the shoulder and the nod of the head and all the other pieces there, and then we just bolt behind it the generative AI and the interface. We capture Garry's voice, you speak for two minutes, breaks it down into phonics and then it can put the phonics on top of anything tool generative AI tool is generating and it looks as though it's you. It sounds as though it's you and the content is from this generative AI, however. So I've been offered a firm who's approached me? Jonathan, can we turn you into an avatar? Can we take all of your knowledge content and we'll offer you a six figure sum to be a bot and then we'll use that as the front end of what we're doing.

Jonathan Passmore:

And the anxiety that I have as a coach, as a psychologist, is that I can't be assured of what it's going to say. What it might say is something that doesn't represent me, that might be something which is inappropriate or unethical, and that anxiety would prevent me at the moment from moving forward, because we want to protect our clients, we don't want to collude with them on self-harm or other things that would be inappropriate. But I can certainly see a time where celebrities might become the trainer, the advisor, the mentor, the coach. So how far are we away from the Donald Trump Executive Coach, where the President sells his image, licenses it and takes five bucks or 50 bucks for every coaching conversation in collaboration with another entrepreneur, or does this themselves have a personal conversation with the president? Or it could be somebody who's not alive but who is dead.

Jonathan Passmore:

You create an image from Nelson Mandela or Mother Teresa or another hero, a leadership thinker and I can see over time, this beginning to emerge and who owns the IP for that individual's identity? Easy when the person's living. More provocative and challenging when that individual is dead, and particularly if that individual's been dead 20 or 30 or 50 years. You know Einstein, so will it be possible yes, it is possible to create Einstein as your Shakespeare or Shakespeare? Well, we have few images of Shakespeare. We've got photographs of Einstein and we've got moving images of Einstein, so over time, we can color them and we can create it a 2D or 3D version of Albert, your personal coach, and I think there are IP and ethical issues around this that create anxieties in me.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, I honor those anxieties in you and I hope that it's somebody like you that's taking that first bold step to watch, to set it up, see the ethical concerns and instruct those people that are creating the mini Jonathan or Johnny bot.

Jonathan Passmore:

It's a scary thought, Garry, isn't it? It's a scary thought.

Garry Schleifer:

I know I think of the same thing about me. It's like because I'm thinking about those same things as well. What's it saying? What I've seen from this company I'm working with is you get to see what your coach bot is saying, so I get the transcript of what I'm saying to this person so I can change it. They can tell me what the source code is. They show you the source of where did it come up with those? Where and why did it come up with those questions? Right, so it's the background of the AI. So I'm very much looking forward to it. I'm taking steps forward. But thank you very much for the reminder about ethics and privacy concerns and, yeah, very much so. A big question for you and I want you to look in your crystal ball and tell me you know. So we've very clearly spoke about the different decades of the coaching education, basically the coaching industry. We're currently in this technology AI phase. What's next?

Garry Schleifer:

I have this client things that he said to me is that it's adopted readily by men, but not so readily by women. What are your thoughts?

Jonathan Passmore:

I don't have any evidence to support or to challenge that view. I think generally we do see technology adoption being something that younger generations often feel more comfortable with and men often feel more comfortable with.

Jonathan Passmore:

But again, the data on this is highly variable and there are multiplicity of other factors cultures, environments, sectors that all will influence the adoption rate. So I think it's it's too simplistic to say men love it and women don't. I think it's it's going to be well maybe in some sectors we'll see higher levels of adoption than others. I think that we're also going to see certain types of roles more likely to adopt it than others. But VR in team coaching, VR in personal coaching I can see as that technology continues to improve. As the avatars improve, this becomes a viable proposition for organizations.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, there was that demo that Sam Isaacson did. Were you on call?

Jonathan Passmore:

I had been on calls with Sam. Sam's a great guy and Sam and I, a long while ago, three years ago experimented when we were working in together. We experimented with VR with a client and we brought together a team of individuals and gave them the VR coaching experience and they had an enjoyable time. Even then, we've made in those three years, or since those three years, there's been great steps in VR technologies, as there has been in digital and AI.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, yeah, exactly no. Oh my gosh, Jonathan. Such a pleasure. We could go on and on, and it's time to wrap. I would like to know what would you like our audience to do as a result of your article and this conversation.

Jonathan Passmore:

So I would encourage them to really immerse themselves in AI and new technologies. The more people understand, the less we're fearful. The more we understand how we can deploy it then people can start to leverage those tools to help them to become a better coach.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, thank you and for people like you and I to take a leading role in lifting the hood on it or, as you say, the boot.

Jonathan Passmore:

We would say dig around, explore, take it apart, put it back together again. Don't be frightened of breaking it. I always encourage people to test things to destruction.

Garry Schleifer:

That's why I love what listening to my mom. She's afraid of installing or doing something with an app and I'm like like you, go right ahead, try and break it. You can't. Yeah, oh, we've got her to a cell phone and an iPad, so there's no problem. Awesome, well, and what's the best way to reach you, Jonathan?

Jonathan Passmore:

People can connect with me on my personal website, jonathanpassmore. com, where there are hundreds of my research articles available to download for free, and I always love to connect with people on LinkedIn.

Garry Schleifer:

Awesome. Thank you so much, and thank you again for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode, again. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app that got you here in the first place. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine, you can sign up for free issued by scanning the QR code in the top right-hand corner there we go or by going to choice-online. com and clicking the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Take care, Jonathan.

Jonathan Passmore:

Garry, thank you.