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Episode 119: Unlocking Coaching Readiness: Cultivating Coachability with guest, Clare Norman
Have you ever wondered if you're truly ready for coaching or if it's the right step for your personal development journey? In our latest episode, we sit down with Clare Norman, a master certified coach and insightful author, who unpacks the nuanced world of coaching readiness and coachability. Clare shares wisdom from her book, "Cultivating Coachability: How to Leverage Coaching Readiness so Thinkers Can Optimize Value," offering listeners a deep dive into determining if coaching is the perfect fit for one's growth needs. With practical advice for both organizations and independent coaches, Clare highlights the importance of assessing readiness before embarking on the coaching journey to ensure a meaningful and impactful experience.
Getting the most out of coaching doesn't just happen by chance—it's about finding the right match and being prepared for the journey. This episode explores the critical elements of compatibility between coaches and clients, emphasizing the necessity of a compatibility meeting to align learning and thinking styles. We talk about common misconceptions between coaching and other growth methods like mentoring and therapy, and how those misunderstandings can hinder a fruitful coaching experience. Clare also stresses the significance of a joint decision-making process, where both coach and client must assess not only their compatibility but also how to navigate potential conflicts of interest. Learn how to strike the perfect balance in controlling session agendas, ensuring clients are met where they are while being encouraged to step outside their comfort zones. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone eager to maximize the value they can derive from coaching.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here.
Clare has provided a Coaching Readiness Equation Free Gift for our listeners.
Learn more about Clare here.
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Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of HOICE, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, gary Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles, have a chat with the brilliant authors behind them, like Clare, and uncover the learnings that are transforming our coaching world. Join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives. This is your go-to resource for all things coaching, so let's dive in.
Garry Schleifer:In today's episode, I'm speaking with mentor coach Clare Norman, who is the author of an article in our latest issue Coaching Education in Flux: The Ongoing Evolution of a Dynamic Field. Her article is entitled Finding the Thinker ~ Screening for Coaching Readiness and Coachability. A little bit about Clare, she's an MSC and an MCC. That's a master certified coach with the International Coaching Federation, has more than 20 years of coaching experience and is highly sought after by other expert coaches and coach training companies. Yes, she is. Everyone talks about Clare. Her laser focus on mindset shifts and her knack for spotting marginal gains has made her a go-to person for coaches looking for mentorship and practical, meaningful ways to improve their practice. Her book, if you want to hold that up, The Transformational Coach ~ Free Your Thinking and Breakthrough to Coaching Mastery. There it is, thank you, little self-promotion, yay. Now in her third book, Cultivating Coachability ~ How to leverage coaching readiness so thinkers can optimize value" she sheds light on all she's learned about screening for and cultivating coachability. Claire, thank you so much for joining us again.
Clare Norman:You are welcome. And that third book, Cultivating Coachability. I can't hold that one up because I'm expecting it from the printers this very week. So I'm excited to have that one in my hands.
Garry Schleifer:Well, you let us know and I'll maybe I'll get Nancy to put it in a weekly recap to say hey hey.
Clare Norman:Thank you.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, no problem. So I'm excited to dive into this article. I still have some questions. I've obviously read it a number of times getting ready for the publication and reread it for today, but before I do so, what called you to write this article at this time?
Clare Norman:Well, I saw that you had the theme around what do we need in the future of coach education, and there's all sorts of things that we need to bear in mind for the future of coach education, but this one around coachability and coaching readiness seemed like it just was a less obvious one for people you know. AI is really obvious, for example, as something that we need to start paying attention to in coach education and how to work with that. But, coaching readiness and coachability aren't so obvious and yet almost every coach I speak to, every coach who comes to supervision, there's something about coachability wrapped up in what they're thinking about. So that's what called me to write the article and to write the book Cultivating.
Garry Schleifer:Well then you really hit the mark because you're right all those other areas were covered, and this is the one that's not covered. Now you're going to lead me right into the next question here. What's your definition of coachability and who are we talking about, the coach or the coachee?
Clare Norman:Well, so I separate out coaching readiness from coachability. They are part of the spectrum, if you like, but coaching readiness is the bit that we need to pay attention to up front. So is this the right intervention for the developmental purpose? And you know, purpose, knowing what the purpose of this coaching is is really vital, and and sometimes we jump straight into that without really understanding the purpose. And therefore, how can we know whether this is the right intervention as opposed to training or therapy or on the job training or whatever?
Clare Norman:So is this the right intervention? Is this the right time for coaching? And that's both for the individual. Is it the right time for them? But also, if they are, if this is organizationally sponsored, is this the right time for the organization, given the changes that they might be working through, for example? And then the other part of coaching readiness is whether the individual is willing and able to think for themselves and to make changes. So, understanding that this coaching thing is not us coaches sprinkling pixie dust all over them. They wish and I wish I had pixie dust and magic, but I don't.
Garry Schleifer:Well, I am magic. I have a magic sweater stick. If the client needs a wish granted, I can grant my wish.
Clare Norman:Guys, I love it that you've got that right there on your desk.
Garry Schleifer:It's a little bit of humor when things get a little too heavy.
Clare Norman:Yeah, perfect, perfect. So that's coaching readiness and that's the bit that we need to pay more attention to before we, the coach, even meet with this individual. So my argument is that the coaching custodian within an organisation, and by coaching custodian I mean the person responsible for commissioning coaching for the organization, they are responsible for checking coaching readiness before it even comes to me, the coach. And that way, the chemistry session, as most people call it, I now call it a compatibility session becomes all about compatibility.
Clare Norman:Then it cuts out all the coaching readiness stuff, because that's been done beforehand and we know everybody is in alignment, that this coaching is right for this individual at this particular point in time. So that's coaching readiness.
Garry Schleifer:Well, hold on hold on.
Garry Schleifer:Well, yeah, you're not skipping over that one. So you just told us how the organization knows whether the coachee is ready? What if there's no organization? What if it's the coach and the client? Who's responsible and how do you manage coaching readiness?
Clare Norman:Well then, in that case, it is up to the coach to be asking those kinds of questions around, is this the right intervention for the developmental purpose around? Is it the right time for the individual and perhaps their other stakeholders, maybe family, for example? Is this individual willing to do the hard work of thinking, understanding that it is their role to think, not our role to think on their behalf? So, yes, in the case of self-referrals, it would be down to the coach to do that.
Garry Schleifer:And to your pointing in the article, that's not something coach training schools teach a coach how to do.
Clare Norman:Not really,
Garry Schleifer:I remember I was excited to get any client and at the risk of sometimes and, thank goodness, I don't believe it ever happened that I didn't have a client I shouldn't have or I had to say, no, I'm not the right coach. I mean, a long time ago I guess I did a couple of times but right now they're referred to me. So the organization is doing it, but coach training school is not preparing a coach to determine. They're preparing them to coach, not to determine whether the client is coaching ready.
Clare Norman:Yeah, exactly, and the problem with that if the coach or the coaching custodian hasn't checked out coaching readiness and hasn't checked out coaching readiness, the coach quite often gets into the coaching because they need the money, they want the hours towards their credential, they want the status of having more hours and a higher credential, for example. So you know, it's understandable that coaches will take on clients or thinkers, as I call them, who perhaps they might have a little, a little doubt about whether this person is coaching ready, but they go ahead anyway. And the problem with that is that the coach ends up in this downward spiral of self-doubt, like is it me? Should I be doing more? What am I missing? And the coach then starts trying harder and harder and harder. But it's not the coach and the coach's competence, it's actually the person they're working with, or perhaps it's that this issue that they're bringing isn't a coaching issue. Perhaps it's something different.
Garry Schleifer:All the more reason we need to be knowing about coaching readiness, and it's interesting, because now I'm hearing distinction between the word coach and coaching readiness. Like that, the pair are ready for coaching and in particular so thank you, yeah, thank you sticking with me on that.
Clare Norman:Yeah, so I can be ready as the coach by getting really good at the competencies and sharpening my saw all the time. But it doesn't matter how good I am if the person I'm working with is not ready, willing and able to do the hard work of thinking.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, no, that's great. Okay now, I broke you up. Now we're going to go over to coachability
Clare Norman:Yes, so coachability then shows up at the point that we actually start coaching. So that's where we, the coach, are partnering with them to build their thinking muscles and really the coachability is all about how strong are their thinking muscles and are they applying those thinking muscles or are they expecting the coach to apply their thinking muscles, which is not our job to do? I think I might have mentioned this on the last podcast we did together. But if you take a personal trainer who is teaching, who is working with you to help you to lift weights, the personal trainer is not the one lifting the weights in order to make your muscles stronger.
Clare Norman:You have to lift the weights yourself to make your own muscles stronger. And that's the same in our relationship coach to thinker, and the clue is in the title thinker. We are enabling them to build their thinking muscles. We can't do that for them, because they will not get stronger in their thinking.
Garry Schleifer:It's so interesting because I use the term coachability a lot. I think what I did is I collapsed coaching readiness and coachability and I'm hearing, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm hearing coaching readiness is the journey up to which the coaching starts or does not start, and coachability is really a continuation of that conversation should they pass the filter of they're ready?
Clare Norman:Absolutely. Yeah, that's how I see it and I think historically we have had this blanket term of coachability. But it feels to me that they are just different stages.
Garry Schleifer:For me, coachability is something I recognize when we're in the coaching session. What I'm hearing in this conversation from the article is that coachability starts with coaching readiness and continues into coachability. So I guess I've been fortunate up until now the client has always been coaching ready.
Clare Norman:You are very lucky.
Garry Schleifer:A little too lucky, one would think. So I'll have to reflect back on that one, because I'm sure it's not possible.
Clare Norman:What? That it could be a hundred percent coaching ready people? I think it would be very unusual. I would ask whether you've ever had any inkling that this is.
Garry Schleifer:So, thank you. So there have been incidents. So there's one early on in my coaching development and it goes back to having hours and I made the one I classically wrong, took a classically wrong action and I offered four one hour coaching sessions a month for three months for like $150 Canadian. Oh my God, poke my eyes out. I so hated not the client, because they were tire kickers and they were getting a good deal, but they were way not coaching ready.
Garry Schleifer:And we're talking almost 20 years ago when we couldn't even get into this conversation of coaching readiness and coachability. Let's just face it, we have evolved and I don't think you and I could have had this conversation 20 years ago when we were when we were both two.
Clare Norman:Yes, exactly. All those years ago. And I mean, I do think I remember us talking about coachability way back then, but it seems to have dwindled in terms of how much we talk about it. And now I'm hearing more people talking about it, but I don't know, somehow not quite articulating it in this separated way of coaching readiness and coachability. So that's what I hope I brought to the party to try and distinguish between the two.
Garry Schleifer:. Recently I recently in a group supervision for a year and I wish I had known about coaching readiness and coachability, because I kept thinking I was doing something wrong. Remember, like what you were saying.
Garry Schleifer:And even though the person I was talking about came from an organization, one would have expected that they were prepared to be coaching, but they kept sitting there waiting for advice or you know like, or would cancel. And now I know why it's because they weren't given the right frame of reference, they weren't filtered to be coaching ready.
Clare Norman:Yeah, yeah, I think often organizations expect that their people know what coaching is and how to make the most of it and how to show up to coaching. But actually people conflate coaching with mentoring or consulting and so they turn up expecting mentoring or consulting. That means they're not coaching ready because nobody has explained to them what the difference between coaching and mentoring and consulting and therapy is. The coach might have done that in a chemistry session, but the coach might also be trying to fit in 101 other things to that chemistry session because the organization hasn't done that.
Garry Schleifer:Right.
Clare Norman:And let's say we have 45 minutes to an hour in a chemistry session. It's not very long to cover 101 million things. So my argument is the what I now call the compatibility meeting should cover very few things, because the coaching readiness piece should have been done already. So the compatibility piece is around, well, first of all, it's a it's a joint decision between coach and thinker as to whether they work together, and I think we've often forgotten that the coach has a say in this and we leave it all down to the thinker as to whether they want to work with us or not. But it is both ways, it needs to be both ways. But then we're checking out for whether our style of support meshes with, or will support, their learning style and thinking style. Yeah, we're also checking out is my style of challenge going to enable this individual to get out of their comfort zone? Because we all know that people like that comfort zone and they actually quite like the status quo and that's not what coaching is about.
Clare Norman:It is about stretching them out of that. So the compatibility session also needs to check that the coach's style of challenge is going to work for the individual and then there's also something there about conflicts of interest that we need to check out as well.
Garry Schleifer:So you're bringing up an interesting point, because where I went when you were saying that was, so who's in charge of the agenda, the client or the coach? And when I was done coach training, we had exercises where the coachee, the other student would speak really quietly and really slowly, and we were taught how to match the client to be with them where they're at.
Clare Norman:Yes.
Garry Schleifer:And then I'm hearing what you're saying is and might want to challenge that or at least test that in the foresight of six of appropriate coaching outcomes.
Clare Norman:Yeah, because I absolutely agree with matching them where they are, because if we are completely different it's gonna really rattle them. But we also need to be really honest about who am I, as a coach, when I'm being at my best and and am I able to be the best coach I can be with this individual, or might there be another coach who's better suited for them and their style and to really meet them where they're at? I'm not saying that I couldn't meet them where where they're at, but am I really going to be the best coach for them.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, well, interesting, you say that, then I reflect back on and they see my bio. So I get a number of clients through platforms and they see my bio. So I get a number of clients through platforms and they see my bio and they get to choose and read through and mine's, my bio has a term in it called rigorous compassion. So if you can picture, and I say to them that, and that means I'm hugging you and kicking you in the ass at the same time .
Garry Schleifer:So with a sense of humor and seriousness as required, hence the sweater stick wand. Yeah, no, that's great. This is all excellent. It really gives some retrospective, some reflection on where we've come from and where we are today that we can have this conversation and understand the importance and how to apply it.
Clare Norman:I'm really keen that we do translate theory into practice, so my book Cultivating Coachability has, I mean, of course it's theoretical because it's in writing but, that has to come off the page and translate into reality, and coaches trying things differently, experimenting, maybe having new processes that are reflective of coaching readiness and coachability so that we don't take that for granted. So we don't take it for granted that the organizations have done their bit at the beginning. And, and that applies um organizations themselves, it also uh uh associate organizations and it applies . to They, they also need to be doing this upfront work to make sure that people um kind of come , who for whom coaching isn't the right intervention for what they're trying to of.
Clare Norman:we need to have more agency as coaches in influencing the coaching custodians of these various different organizational structures so that actually we can get into the coaching as soon as we start working with somebody, rather than having to explain what coaching is and is not and you know, get all frustrated ourselves that . oh
Garry Schleifer:No, no I hear you, I hear your point, and so in my not chemistry but intro because the organization and the platform have done the chemistry session. Right or wrong or indifferent, they've done that compatibility. When I get these clients, I always ask have you ever had a coach before? And I'll tell you 99% of them have not and I've come to realize that now, and so of course I take it a little bit to heart that they have the best experience ever, which they would have anyway, come o n. And I'm still myself and I bring into it to your point earlier, I'll explain what coaching isn't, what coaching is not. The organization has committed to telling them. It doesn't mean that the coachee has read it or listened to the instruction.
Garry Schleifer:So I want everybody to come to a level playing field to the best of my ability. I go over confidence, I go over coaching readiness with respect to what is coaching, what it's not, and then just ask them and I think I'm going to ask them a few more questions that are related to coaching readiness as a result of the conversation, and I challenge our listeners to think about doing the same thing. What can you add in?
Clare Norman:Yeah, I absolutely think it's worthwhile, particularly if, let's say, it's a platform that you're working through and we know a lot of coaches do these days and so the matching has been done, maybe by an AI in some instances. That matching has been done.
Garry Schleifer:That's the sorting mechanism behind the scenes.
Clare Norman:Yeah yeah, we've been sorted to work together, great. But let's just check that this really is the right intervention for their purpose and that they are willing to do what it's going to take to, you know, make some change.
Garry Schleifer:Okay, so what if the organization sent them? They believe the person is coaching ready and you are facing this a little bit of challenge with this client. What do you do?
Clare Norman:Well, it's a great question. We need to agree with the individual whether we are going to go ahead or not. And if either one of us decides that coaching isn't a good fit for them or that we're not a good match to work together maybe there is a conflict of interest, for example then we need to figure out together how are we going to go back to the organization to say this isn't the right thing or the right time or the right intention, or whatever it is. So we do need to agree that together. It can't be one or the other.
Garry Schleifer:All right, fine. The next time I have one I'm going to push back and say I'm ready, but I don't think the client is.
Clare Norman:I mean, yeah, it's not an easy thing to go back.
Garry Schleifer:No, it's very uncomfortable and, you know, at the risk of not getting more clients, getting tossed out of the algorithm and blah, blah, blah. All those things that go through your head, but because we're truly committed to coaching, and I haven't met a coach that isn't, it might even border on like an ethical concern.
Clare Norman:I think it's unethical to start a coaching arrangement with a person for whom coaching is not the right intervention for what it is they want to work on. I think it's unethical to not check out whether this is the right time for them and or for their organization, and I think it's unethical to be working with somebody who's not willing to do the work.
Garry Schleifer:Right, we're not here as a consultant or a mentor. We're here as a coach. That's what we're paid to do and what the organization or the powers that be expect us to do.
Clare Norman:Yeah.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, oh, my gosh, Clare, this is excellent. So I have to ask you. Cleaning up with, we started about your article called Finding The Thinkers ~S reening for coaching readiness and coachability. I want to make sure I'm on the right page. When I first started rereading I was like you even put in who's the thinker. But you've said clearly and I want you to just to give us some more background to this, as needed, the thinker is the client.
Clare Norman:Yes, yes, some people call them the coachee, some people call them the client.
Clare Norman:I call them the thinker, because that is what they are there to do. Now, I didn't invent this term. It came from Nancy Klein. She talks about the thinking environment and she talks about the thinker.
Clare Norman:I really like it as far as it goes. However, I don't think it really goes far enough to describe how they access their wisdom, because thinker suggests that it's cerebral, that it's, you know, logical, intellectual, and in fact, our job as coaches is also to help them to tap into their other senses. What do intuition their intuition tell them? What does their body tell them? What does uh heart tell them? What does their stomach tell what W hen when they say, oh, my chest is really tight. What is that telling them? And our job is to help them to use all of that wisdom to make breakthroughs, because actually, you know, thinking here, they can do that on their own. They don't need us to be logical. That's where most many of us sit anyway, naturally, because we've kind of been programmed that way over the years. So that's why I use the word thinker, but I don't think it goes far enough to also talk about all of the other senses. I just haven't found a better word.
Garry Schleifer:I was just going to ask. So what's the word you want, Claire? Clare
Clare Norman:I don't know.
Garry Schleifer:I'm rattling through my head and I'm like somatic doer be'er, holistic. But unless you clearly say those things you said about heart and body and mind all wrapped into one, without sounding too woo-woo, because that's the other downside, it's the whole person ready.
Clare Norman:And you know that can be part of our compatibility meeting with them, or our intro meeting, as you call it. To enable them to understand that this is more than just thinking with their head, that actually we are going to challenge them to access other forms of wisdom, because that's how they're going to make the breakthroughs.
Clare Norman:If that isn't what they want, then I'm certainly not the right coach for them. So, again, it helps them to make that call for themselves about whether I'm the right coach for them. Equally, if I get that inkling that they're not gonna go there, they're so very hooked into the logical that I will get frustrated working with somebody who's not willing to experiment a bit with stuff like that. I mean slowly, slowly I'm not saying I'm gonna, you know, ram it down their throat immediately, but people are surprised at how much new insight they can get by accessing those other parts of the body, as many of your other writing contributors have said in the past when you've talked about neuroscience, for example, and semantics and all that.
Clare Norman:You've got some great writers who've been writing about that.
Garry Schleifer:Mandy Blake, who you mentioned in your article.
Clare Norman:Exactly, I mentioned her in the article.
Garry Schleifer:There's the brilliant mind of Clare Norman as well. Clare, thank you. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation?
Clare Norman:I would love for them to first off buy the book Cultivating Coachability, available now.
Garry Schleifer:Is it available?
Garry Schleifer:It's available online
Clare Norman:So it's actually published on the 17th. As we speak, it's one week away, but it's published. Depending when you release this podcast, that might already be in the past.
Garry Schleifer:I'm gonna say it's already gonna be, because I believe this one will be out after tha t.
Clare Norman:Okay, yeah, so it will be available in all good bookshops, booksellers. Cultivating Coachability.
Clare Norman:So that would be the first thing I'd like them to do and then I'd like to encourage them to buddy up with at least one other coach to walk through what they discover for themselves. I would like coaches to read that book as though I'm a provocateur, not as though I'm a guru, because I'm still working this stuff out for myself, even 23 years into being a coach, and I want people to have their own agency. I mean, that's part of what I say in the intro to the book is agency is really important to me, and so I want coaches to have their own agency, to have their own thoughts about how to integrate coaching readiness and coachability processes into their whole coaching experience.
Garry Schleifer:Well and, as I mentioned, I would suggest that our listeners and readers do that and as I'm going to do and just add a couple of questions to get started, until you get your hands on the book and then see where it goes from there and to reflect back, like I did, on the clients that I've had in the past. Now that I know the distinction of coaching readiness and coachability, where did I let it slide? W hat was Was the impact on me because I like I dread clients like that when they're on the hooks.
Clare Norman:exactly, and it doesn't do us any good in terms of our own fulfillment, our own self-belief. So, yeah, the other thing I would like is, if there are any coach training providers listening to us talking here today, I would like them to consider how to build this into their coach training programs. I mean, after all, that is what your whole, was going to say say episode episode,.
Garry Schleifer:We're on an episode talking about an issue. Yeah, yeah, discussing an article.
Clare Norman:Yeah, so let's build that in so that coaches get that right from the beginning, from the word go.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you for that. what's the best way to reach you?
Clare Norman:People can find me on LinkedIn - claire norman mcc or they can certainly email me. Claire@ claire normansociates. com.
Garry Schleifer:Perfect, awesome, oh my goodness, a wonderful conversation as always. Thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode.
Clare Norman:It's been lovely to chat to you again, Garry.
Garry Schleifer:That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via the favorite podcast app that you use to get yourself here in the first place, and don't forget to mark us down and refer us to your friends. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code, and I got it right this time, in the top right corner or by going to choice-online. com and clicking the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thanks again, Clare.
Clare Norman:You're welcome.