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Episode 121: Elevating Coaching Excellence: Self-Awareness, Bias, and Experiential Learning with guest, Cheryl Proctor-Rogers

Garry Schleifer

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Award-winning business strategist and Master Certified Coach Cheryl Procter-Rogers joins us for an enlightening discussion on the transformative power of coaching education. Ever wondered how self-awareness and a keen understanding of global trends could amplify your coaching effectiveness? We promise you'll learn just that as we explore the critical role of continuous learning, especially at the Master Certified Coach level. Together, we unpack the importance of understanding the societal context and how our own biases shape interactions, offering a roadmap to resonating more deeply with clients.

We also take a hard look at what it truly means to elevate coaching education standards beyond mere certification. Cheryl and I discuss why embodying core competencies and ethics is non-negotiable and how experiential learning trumps theoretical knowledge in preparing coaches for real-world challenges. Discover the sometimes harsh reality that coaching might not be for everyone and why some certified coaches struggle after leaving their secure jobs prematurely. As we wrap up, stay tuned for future surprises, and don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and choice Magazine for more insights. Join us on this journey to raise the bar in the dynamic field of coaching.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Cheryl here.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/



Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of hoice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, gary Schleifer, and I'm thrilled to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles, have a chat with a brilliant author named Cheryl behind them, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. Join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and, like we all, want to make a big difference in our clients' lives. This is your go-to resource for all things coaching. So let's dive in.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's episode, I'm speaking with award-winning business strategist, heryl Proctor-Rogers, who is the author of an article in our latest issue, coaching Education and Flux. If you can see this, if you're on video the Ongoing Evolution of a Dynamic Field. Her particular article is entitled Raising the Bar the Transformative Power of Coaching Education. Before we get into the conversation, I want to tell you a little bit about Cheryl. She's an MCC, which is a Master Certified Coach in the International Coaching Federation world. She's an award-winning public relations and business strategist with more than 40 years of experience in transforming leaders and organizations. She served in executive roles at DePaul University home box office or, as we know, at HBO and Nielsen Marketing Research. Currently she's the Associate Director and Executive Coach at Ernst Young EY so we can use all our abbreviations today as a consultant, her firm, a Step Ahead, has worked with clients such as Coca-Cola, nissan, allstate, mcdonald's and McCain Foods. She serves on the boards of the International Coaching Federation and Bradley University and we're thankful she's also a member of the editorial board of Choice Magazine.

Garry Schleifer:

Yay, heryl, thank you so much for joining me again today. It was great to see you recently at that conference and great to see you again today.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Garry, I'm just always so excited when I get a chance to talk about something that I'm passionate about, and seeing you at the Midwest Regional Conference in Cincinnati was a real treat because we're usually on screen.

Garry Schleifer:

Right.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

And so to be able to not give you that virtual hug, but an actual hug was really cool.

Garry Schleifer:

That was great, great and great to meet your husband as well. That was a fun treat. So hopefully he's out there golfing somewhere while you're doing this recording, as he loves to do. Well, you just answered my first question, which is why you chose to write this article because you have a passion for the topic and I want to delve right into when I was rereading it, of course I've read it like 100 times, when in proof reading, etc. The whole topic of it is raising the bar. Inside the article you asked the question is it time to raise the bar? And I asked that in particular as a PCC working on MCC, but you're already an MCC. What does raising the bar look like for you?

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Well, as an MCC coach, one of the basic tenets is continuous learning and to always find ways and find opportunities to really elevate the coaching in a way that accelerates the insights and awareness that we're bringing to those client conversations. And so for the MCC coach, and no, Garry, we don't know at all.

Garry Schleifer:

I never said that, but seriously, in our world it's kind of like it's a moment and it's like you are at the pinnacle in a sense. It's like ACC, PCC, MCC. So what is next? Like what you know personally raising the bar as an industry, raising the bar, it's a huge question.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

And I think the easy answer to that is raising the bar is everything that you can imagine, and more. And so raising the bar means to you know, we talk about being present in our coaching conversations. I would say that it means being present in what's happening in the world around us. Being present and really noticing and observing the evolution that's happening in not only in our own communities where we live, but around the world, and how that impacts those coaching conversations can be extraordinary.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

I do know that there are individuals who say I don't have the television. I don't really watch much television but as an MCC coach I might not agree with everything that's on television, but if there is something that's percolating up and I don't get my news from TikTok, but I do pay attention to what's trending on TikTok and what's trending on LinkedIn so that I can become at least aware of what might be triggering a client or how the client might feel that they're being left out of conversations or that they're not really prepared to speak across generations because they don't have that experience or awareness of some of the trends that are happening in our society. So when I say raise the bar, it's not just about having better, powerful coaching questions, but about putting those questions in the context for our clients in a way that resonates with them.

Garry Schleifer:

And add on that is our own self-awareness of how we are reacting to the things in the world and how it might include a bias in our coaching that we need to be present to for ourselves.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Oh Garry, I couldn't have said that better. And the whole idea of supervision and mentor coaching, peer coaching, it's important, but I think you nailed it. It's really about always tapping in to who we are and how we are evolving as humans first, because, by the way, we're humans first, not coaches.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, we're beings, not doings.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Correct. And so how does that impact not only our listening, but how does it impact the questions that we ask?

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, no kidding, no kidding. Well, speaking of evolving, this issue is about coaching education. So how do you see coaching education evolving, and what trends should aspiring coaches pay attention to?

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Oh my gosh. Do you mind if I start with my coach education journey?

Garry Schleifer:

Go right ahead. We love the personal side.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

So it was a little over 25 years ago. Garry, I was getting more and more requests from my current public relations clients and potential clients for coaching. Some of them weren't calling me coach. I just want you to help me think through what's next for me or I'm experiencing some challenges with my team and I'm hoping that you can help me figure out what's going on. And as I was reading the business press, I also saw a lot of articles where very senior, iconic leaders were actually bragging about the fact that they had a coach, and so I thought, wow, here's a profession that is really coming from behind the curtain, because years ago, I knew for sure that no one would ever say they had a coach.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah right, it was almost like saying you are in therapy.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

That's right. And it was like there was obviously some behavior that needed to change, and so the coach was brought in to either fix this person or they were going to be out, and so, as it started to evolve, then I started getting those requests and if you know anything about me, I like to be informed and knowledgeable. So I said okay, there's something afoot here and let me ensure that I know what I'm doing. So I Googled yes, I Googled, coach education, coach training, and it was literally, Garry, the wild wild west. And $200, two days, you're a certified coach. Wow, 18 months, $20,000, you're a certified coach.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

So how was I to decipher? And what I did was I leaned on my own public relations training and I did a communications audit and I found that the International Coaching Federation was the organization quoted most often in credible publications and so I went to their website and, thank goodness, they're certifying these programs. At least I feel like I'm on solid ground here and I chose a program, and I chose a program based on budget, time and the fact that it was accredited by the ICF. And so what did I learn. I didn't learn this until much later, when I became a member of the ICF and then started to aspire for credentials. I didn't know that I should have asked what's the credential of the person training me? Am I being trained at the ACC level, the PCC level or the MCC level? How am I embracing the idea of a coaching career and what are the tools that I will need? Garry, a lot of that was not available in the coach training.

Garry Schleifer:

And a lot of it is still not available in coach training.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Correct. And so the answer to that question is, I think it is really critical that any student of coaching at any level considers what's the most important thing for them to know, and some would say, well, Cheryl, I don't know what I don't know, and so this is why research is so important when choosing a coach education program. And I don't know what your thoughts are on that, Garry, but I think it's one of the steps that we take kind of on a surface level and we don't go deeper.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Well, I'll get to that answer that for you. One of the reasons we do what we do at choice is so that we can educate, and we've added podcasts so we could add more information. I want to agree and acknowledge the International Coaching Federation for creating a system whereby you can go to their website, don't have to be a member. You're looking for coach education of any kind, in any language, and you can quite quickly come up with some good sources and, to your point, take it a step further, what's important for you to know right and a little bit of research in advance as to what to expect out of coaching or what's next after. If, going back, I would have wanted more training on how to create a business. That's the one thing that I didn't find. What's interesting in other interviews I've been doing is somebody was telling me how much it rocked their world being a coach in training and then going into the real world again and how weird everything felt and how weird they were talking and their relationships changed and all this sort of stuff. So I was prepared for that because I'd done human development with Landmark Education and they talked about re-entry quite a bit. But some interesting things I never even thought of.

Garry Schleifer:

And you want the wild, wild west. Cheryl, how many were available when you Googled? I don't even think Google existed when I looked. I searched on the internet. There were three. Coachville, CoachU, pretty much the same thing, and CTI, and it was seriously early days, it was like 2000. And I couldn't make heads or tails. Their websites back then, of course they didn't know how to mail the website, was awful. I still ended up calling.

Garry Schleifer:

I chose the coaches well, what do they call now? Coactive training and I did my certification with that. And then, to your point, I did my research. What do I need next? What do I need next? You know? So I tried ORSC systems training and I did a course with Janet Harvey, advanced generative coaching to advance my skills, deepen my learning, unlearn, as she likes to say, and to move forward. So I have no regrets about my journey and I don't think I have anything I would really, other than that business building piece, would have liked to have had a little bit more knowledge and support, and you know, on that topic.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Yeah, you bring up a really good point about embodying coaching and embodying a coaching culture.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

So I had just completed my 30 hours and I had signed up for 30 more so that I could have my 60 hours, so I could be a member of the ICF. And a couple, a friend of ours, joined us in Illinois for our Thanksgiving holiday and they were coming in from New York and I couldn't wait to tell everyone that I was doing this coach training. And I'll never forget her husband, my girlfriend's husband, looking me in the eye and saying to me I guess we had been together a couple of hours at that point and you know, probably 20 of us between my family and then a couple of other friends. And he says to me Garry, yeah, but you don't sound like a coach. That's me right. Remember, I've only had my 30 hours.

Garry Schleifer:

Right, exactly.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

And I now know that what he meant was I wasn't embodying the coaching language, I wasn't curious, and so when he said, you don't sound like a coach, I didn't even know what that meant until years later when I came to understand that when you embody coaching as a culture, as a way of life, you're present more than you've ever been. You're listening is just very different, and the way you respond is very different.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Yeah, and then what that also taught me was that in that coaching I wasn't learning that.

Garry Schleifer:

Interesting.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

And so when we talk about raising the bar, it's really about elevating and educating, not only on the code of ethics, what should happen in the coaching conversation, looking at the ICF core competencies. Raising the bar means really how do you embody and change and evolve. That this is not something that you just do. It's who you're actually being and how you're evolving and how our coaching education programs should be doing that. And I'm not saying that all or not.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

And as we start to see our universities offering not only they're going beyond certifications into degrees- they're very theoretical. Again, how do you educate and create that experiential learning so that at the end of any program you know that two day program or that two year program or that four year program, the individual understands and comes out an evolved individual that is totally aligned and passionate about coaching in a way that they weren't when they first entered the program.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, you bring up a really good point and it's one that I ask a lot. I've been coaching for 23 and a half years, almost 24 years. People ask me oh, when are you going to retire? And I said, well, I'm not working right now. So why would I retire? Because when I'm coaching, I don't feel like it's working.

Garry Schleifer:

Can somebody who's that young feel the same way I do going through a like, oh, you know, I'm going to, like I'll be an engineer or a scientist or a coach. Hmm, I guess I'll choose coach. Like to me, and I have to think back, did I see it as a calling? I had the experience of being coached. I loved being coached. I loved my coach. I saw the potential. I saw the potential to make money doing it, so I went and got coach training. But can you instill that what we really do, or better yet who we're being as coaches, embodying in a four-year program? That's so academic.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

I think that's why these programs I think elevating and raising the bar would include a lot more experiential learning, where students are not just coaching each other or coaching other coaches, but that they're really being exposed and having to coach individuals with real challenges or real opportunities, and so that there's an incubator, if you will, and where the observation is such that an individual can really understand and see the difference and feel the difference and that becomes part of the curriculum, the measurement., Because you know we're going to focus on what we've measured on. And when we're in school, what do we do? We study for the test.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Coaching is one of those professions where you're not going to be as successful if you're just studying for the test.

Garry Schleifer:

It goes back to your conversation about embodiment, embodying being a coaching. And earlier, even earlier in the conversation, when you said so who's leading the program? So our university professors have they gone through coach training? Have they embodied coaching?

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Yeah, and how do you know? You know, just because, and we know this for sure, I hope we don't get any letters from attorneys.

Garry Schleifer:

That's such an American thing to say. We are in Canada. It's like bring it on.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Just because you went to law school and you passed the bar doesn't mean you're going to be a great attorney.

Garry Schleifer:

Same as a doctor or a teacher or a social worker. And somewhere in that journey some people come out of it and they embody social work, they embody law, they embody medicine. I mean, recently my husband has gone through a series of challenges with blood infection. To a person, the people we finally fought to work with embodied care, understanding, listening and oh my gosh, asking powerful questions.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

And can you imagine what our world would be like if coaching was not just something that was set aside but was integrated into all phases of our education and not just something that you did with the coaching, education, training? You know MCC Coach Amy Donovan, when I interviewed her for that article she said something to me that really resonated.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, what did my friend Amy say? It's got to be good really resonated.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

I mean she basically said coaching is not going to be for everyone. Sit with that

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Coaching is not going to be for everyone, and when she said it, it was you know how somebody's, you're having a conversation about a lot of things and you're like I'm coming back to that. I probably won't be here with Amy when I do, but that is something I really want to ponder.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, an inquiry.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Yes. And so what it meant for me, Garry, was back to this calling, back to what are your God-given talents, what makes you just able to be an amazing coach, some of the things you were born with, some of the skills you develop. But to know that everyone isn't going to be a great coach, everyone isn't cut out for coaching. And the other thing that Amy said and I think I'm taking us on another tangent here, but she talked about the idea that you see it in higher Ed and definitely see it in these coach education programs. Now that I'm certified, I'm going to quit my day job and that's another, I think, challenge for our profession and our education coaching programs is what is the intake process. Is it just the application and the payment or should we raise the bar and have a criteria for students coming into the coaching program.

Garry Schleifer:

That would be a great idea.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Yes, we have such a high failure rate where individuals do believe okay, I've spent all this money, just like in higher ed. I've spent all this money, okay, yeah, it is amazing. That's just not how it works, right.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

And so how do we in the coaching community start to create and ask some real questions and maybe even have an assessment that would identify the ability for some or capacity for someone to be successful as a coach? So can I go a little further on this?

Garry Schleifer:

It sounds deeper Go.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Okay, and so remember this is Cheryl.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

This assessment. Do you want to be an internal coach? Do you want to be an external coach? Do you want to be a generalist? Do you want to have a specialty and having that I don't know option? And if an applicant has too many, I don't know, are they really ready for coaching education? Is there something that we can create to help them answer those questions before they invest that time, that money, in this profession?

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, I would, and I think you probably have this on your list. But I would ask the question do you have the resources to start coaching like full time? You know what I mean? Related to that question about oh, I can quit my day job, it's like, yeah, give that some thought people, and what does that mean? Yes, and I would hope that in that assessment there's the opportunity for them to research and reflect and come back to making the decision, and that in itself sounds very coach-like, right? We're coaching this person to coach to understand what they're getting into and do their own work, empowering them to do their own work and not in a way that detracts.

Garry Schleifer:

It's a beautiful profession. I mean, oh my gosh, clients, I love them all, seriously. Even the ones that are the most challenging are a challenge for me and it helps me grow. I love them all and I get so much out of it. When I talk to my clients, they come up with ideas and I'm like, oh, I'm going to take that one home and then get present again and get back in the coaching call. But yeah, there's so much similarity that this is something other professions that should do the same thing. Lawyers, doctors, social workers, teachers, right as, especially as all these professions evolve. Oh my goodness, that assessment would have to be changing like all the time. AI, ethics, impact of AI and ethics, you know things like that. So, yeah, really great points, Cheryl. So when are you going to have that assessment done?

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Actually, I just took a course through Go Imagery on creating your own assessments.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, look at you.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

And my idea, Garry and I don't know when I'll get to this, but my idea is to do this assessment and then not to say, okay, you have too many I don't know so come back in a year when you have it figured out. But to have a program for that individual much like when someone applies for a university and they have low skills and it's like well, you're going to have to take this math course Right yeah, before you're going to be able to take some of the higher level courses, and so that's what I see as raising the bar is having that assessment and helping that potential coachee to really . Clarity some clarity clarity about what's possible for them based on their own personal passions, and so then, when they come into the coaching program, it's well this. Well, let me see. I don't know if I want to.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

if I want to niche I don't know so what happens.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

So they come out with the theoretical, the mechanics of coaching, and I would suggest that just a small percentage come in focused with passion, because they've either experienced coaching already, they've done the research and, like myself, I realized that I had pretty much been coaching/ mentoring for my whole career in public relations, because you can't even implement a public relations or business strategy without having these tough conversations with the leaders until you ask a lot of questions and then you start telling them what to do.

Garry Schleifer:

Well because you were in the advice giving game. PR is advice as well, but my goodness, what we had in our past that we now go, Oh, that was coaching. Same, yeah.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

And then when you start thinking about I'm saying raising the bar because that's the article, but it really is about how do we know the students have been successful? How are we measuring that? And so a coaching education program is certified or accredited and they have a certification and the student gets that certification. How do we know? Our credentials, did they hit the markers?

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, did they only hit the markers right? Did they embody coaching? How do you measure coaching embodiment?

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Correct and how do you measure success? Yeah, and one of the statistics that I found striking was that in about three years that we're going to be oversaturated in the world with coaches that have been through programs.

Garry Schleifer:

Nine billion people? There's enough going to be oversaturated coaches for 9 billion people, because you know we want everybody to have a coach. We'll see. Oh, my goodness, this has been excellent, Cheryl. You know us. We could keep going, but unfortunately. What would you like our audience to do as a result of your article and this conversation?

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Wow. I would love to get some engagement on their thoughts. We didn't have the opportunity to talk about AI and this whole digital transformation of coaching and how that might be really useful to consider in coach education training programs. We also didn't have the opportunity to dig deeper into something you brought up about the business of coaching and whether or not you're entrepreneurial enough. Maybe internal coaching is best, and then the blurred line between therapy and coaching, and so I would ask the audience and anyone who's passionate about coaching to really start creating their own personal education curriculum of what they believe is going to be important for them to know to be successful in the coming years.

Garry Schleifer:

Thank you. Well said, well said, and we've got a lot of articles coming up that just will right in line with what you just said in the next issue. So stay tuned to engage in a conversation. What's the best way to reach you?

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

You can reach me on LinkedIn Cheryl Proctor- Rogers. That's Procter like Procter and Gamble, e-r without the money.

Garry Schleifer:

Dash Roger, and we can say so you're Procter and Gamble and you're Rogers, the telecommunications company with none of the bucks. Thank you, Cheryl.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Thank you so much for this opportunity to just share my thoughts and have this conversation with you.

Garry Schleifer:

You are an amazing thought leader. You are a dynamic and challenge the world kind of person, in a loving way, while embodying coaching as well. So I love working with you. Thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. Thank you, and we look forward to another something, something coming, I'm sure we shall see. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, probably the one that got you here in the first place. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine, you can sign up for free. I got it right this time by scanning the QR code in the top right-hand corner or going to choice-online. com and clicking the sign up now button. Thanks again, Cheryl.

Cheryl Procter-Rogers:

Thank you.

Garry Schleifer:

I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.