choice Magazine
choice Magazine
Episode 122: Integrating Tarot into Coaching: Uncovering Intuition and Insight with guests Shirley Attenborough and Rachel Hope
What happens when you blend the structured world of coaching with the mystical realm of tarot? Master Coach Shirley Attenborough and Tarot Therapist Rachel Hope join us to explore this intriguing synergy, turning conventional coaching on its head. Rachel shares her initial skepticism and the surprising transformative power she witnessed with tarot readings during retreats. Meanwhile, Shirley talks about her journey from a scientific coaching methodology to embracing tarot as a powerful intuitive tool, revealing how it can deepen self-awareness and creativity in clients.
Experience the dynamic interplay between client interpretation and guided insight, where tarot cards become a third entity in coaching sessions. This collaborative exploration can unlock new perspectives and potential paths, highlighting the unexpected insights a single drawn card can bring. As coaches and tarot therapists, Shirley and Rachel underscore the importance of broadening perspectives, emphasizing that the element of surprise can foster a deeper understanding for both coach and client.
The episode also examines the practical integration of tarot into coaching, stressing the importance of intuition and imagery. Discover how extending session times might be necessary to fully explore the insights tarot can provide, and consider the exciting possibility of expanding these practices online. We also connect the tarot's major arcana with Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey, illustrating how tarot suits align with thoughts, beliefs, actions, and behaviors. Shirley and Rachel's insights offer a fresh lens on how to enrich coaching practices, promising a fascinating journey into the possibilities of tarot coaching.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here.
Learn more about Rachel Hope and Shirley Attenborough
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Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles, have a chat with the brilliant authors, and I can say brilliant authors because I got two of them, behind them and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. Join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and, like we all want to do, make a real difference in our clients' lives. This is your go-to resource for all things coaching. So let's dive in.
Garry Schleifer:In today's episode, I'm speaking with Master Coach Shirley Attenborough and Tarot Therapist Rachel Hope, who are the authors of an article in our latest issue Coaching Education in Flux ~ The Ongoing Evolution of a Dynamic Field. Their article is entitled Fusing Art and Science ~ Unlocking the Synergy Between Coaching and Tarot. A little bit about the authors Shirley is a Master Coach, Fellow of the Association for Coaching, a business psychologist and a freelance leadership coach. After 20 years of living in the Middle East where she owned a coaching company, she now works and resides in London.
Garry Schleifer:Rachel is a tarot therapist and founder of Tarot Coach and Soul Sisters Community Retreats. After a long corporate career as an international marketing manager, she now runs workshops and retreats across the UK, using journaling and tarot therapy to support clients to deepen their self-awareness, foster creative problem solving and identifying opportunities to move forward positively. Of course, who wants to move forward negatively? Come on. Thank you Rachel and Shirley for joining us today. Rachel has the dark hair and the glasses folks, if you're watching and Shirley has blonde and no glasses, and I've got a mix of both. So there we go.
Garry Schleifer:Okay, so let's just get this elephant in the room dealt with. When you two first approached me about writing an article coaching in tarot, I was like really, and then I just let my curiosity open up. We had a great conversation and afterwards I was thinking this makes so much sense. So let's go back in time a little bit and one of you is a coach, one of you is a tarot therapist. How did you get together and and how did you figure this out or how did it come about?
Shirley Attenborough:Rachel, I'll let you start because it was your idea.
Rachel Hope:Okay, thank you. Well, I mean just a very quick background. Shirley and I met many years ago when we were both working in the Middle East and after a bit we met through business but also I worked corporately. Our friendship has continued going forward. When I started working about four years ago now as a tarot therapist, I run three-day residential retreats and I was continually surprised more than surprised, actually staggered how all the tools and techniques I used which includes journaling and meditations, everything that you, the techniques that we would use to help people open up their self-awareness, to become unstuck, that whatever sort of situation or should we say problem, in inverted commas, that my clients presented with, they worked on that through the whole three days and at the end of it I would work with them on a reading and they would suddenly have this massive realization. They would just go. It was visceral, they would go into their intuition and something completely different would surface.
Rachel Hope:And I was just saying to Shirley, we were talking you know we get together a lot as friends and talking about what we do for our work, how unbelievable this was and it just has to be taken forward as an intuitive tool.
Shirley Attenborough:And, Garry, as we both know as coaches, how often do we start in one place with one of our clients and suddenly, when there's 15 minutes to go, we end up somewhere completely different. You know, they suddenly decide they want to share with you what's really going on, especially in maybe an early relationship with a new client. So I said to Rachel there's already synergy. Like you, the idea of bringing Tarot into coaching.
Garry Schleifer:Welcome to the club Shirley.
Shirley Attenborough:not sure. I said I'm not sure I'm ready for this. I come from a psychological background very, very scientific scientific, models, anthony Anthony, Grant of we mentioned in our article yeah then also I secretly also played with tarot cards.
Shirley Attenborough:I said, ok, hands up, and I said, if I have, how many other people have and have never talked about this? So I said, ok, let's pilot it. I said, let me go away, let me think about it, let me think how we can map this on, because if we're going to do it, we need a process, because coaching, as we know, is the process. And so off I went, we came back and so we took it to some of Rachel's retreats and we started mapping it towards the end of the retreat onto coaching models and the results was astonishing, it was just astonishing. So we came back and I said to Rachel, let me keep doing it.
Shirley Attenborough:I'm not, you know, obviously I'm not a tarot therapist, but I said, as a coach, we're going to allow them to interpret. And so I did hundreds, I'd say all across. It wasn't last summer, it was the summer before, with different people. I mixed it male and female, because I thought the males are going to be traditionally, they're going to be more resistant.
Shirley Attenborough:And they were initially very much so, and then we got back together again and did some more together and the results were astonishing. Of course, we allowed them to interpret themselves. Because for me, Garry, okay, where am I going with this?
Shirley Attenborough:For me, it's really important to get people to use the whole of themselves, not just the head. Yeah, you don't want them just to be into on an intellectual level using their cognitive abilities and we found that by giving them, especially the tarot imagery, there's so much symbolism in there, they were quickly able to come out of their heads.
Garry Schleifer:That's great. Between the two of you, what's the most common reaction that you get when you first introduce tarot into coaching?
Rachel Hope:Well for me, I work as a tarot therapist, so I'm not in the situation, I'm not a coach and therefore I don't have to introduce tarot. I mention in my retreats, which focus on midlife women, mostly, who feel stuck and want to move forward, and I mentioned the tools there of the journaling and tarot. So we do a process of opening up our intuition and then reflection and reset, similar in a way, but I certainly would never call myself a coach. So they know it's about the tarot and I teach people to read the cards for themselves. So for me they're already expecting it. I'm not quite sure how for Shells when she whips out the cards in an executive coaching session.
Shirley Attenborough:Well, I think you're right, timing is everything.
Shirley Attenborough:I wouldn't do it initially with a brand new client, but when I have, after a few sessions, said look, you know, I like to use imagery, I specifically like to use tarot cards because the imagery is so rich. Are you willing to give this a go?
Shirley Attenborough:And often at the beginning, initially there is, there is skepticism, they're quite cynical about it. But once they start getting into it, everything changes and the passion, the excitement, especially if the devil card comes up and I don't say anything, I think whether they're going to like this or not, what do you see? What does that mean to you? And they're going, I'm getting in my own way. It is astonishing, and it didn't matter, whatever their situation, they seem to interpret the cards the way the cards are meant to be, you know, traditionally interpreted. They'll add even more depth to that. And honestly, I can say that I've seen so many clients have massive breakthroughs from using this. Yeah, and I think it's because, especially if they've got, you know, if they are stuck, as Rachel said and I have a lot of business people that are stuck you know they've got some big challenges and once they can come out of themselves and just look at the card and think, in your situation, what are these cards saying to you? And we also let them move around. We use Anthony's model, the house of change, move around that. And so, even if they're in situation and an emotion card comes up, which is represented by cups, we let them go with that. You know we're not sort of, you know we're not insisting that they have to use.
Garry Schleifer:Right, let them see what they see.
Shirley Attenborough:Let them see what they see, absolutely.
Rachel Hope:Absolutely. Yeah, there is nothing in modern day tarot therapy, there's nothing prescriptive, there's nothing fatalistic. You know the James Bond that sort of glorified the voodoo aspect and the hanged man and all those very visceral images, that is not how it's approached at all now. It is literally about the person that's looking at the cards, to use it themselves, to spark an internal conversation and also to help them. To having a physical card there, I find very much, it allows them, and certainly myself, to separate ourselves from the problem rather than seeing ourselves as the problem. I can stand back and I can look at the card and I can almost say oh Rachel, I see what you're doing over there. I almost go as far as sort of feeling that I'm a little bit subjective and objective at the same time, and that is massively helpful because it takes away my own judgment and fear of a situation.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, no, it's really great. I think what you said earlier as well, Shirley, about it being an imagery card like coaches have been using that. A friend of mine, Marcy Nelson Garrison, leads classes on creating imagery cards to support people's coaching practices based on their wisdom. My question to you two is, that's how I kind of thought about it, what's the big difference between tarot cards and other imagery cards that coaches are already using?
Shirley Attenborough:I think I'm going to let Rachel talk a bit about this, but all I'm going to say is it's things like the archetypes. I mean, we are hearing so much about archetypes in the media at the moment, whether it's Caroline Myss, a lot of others. We've got the archetypes, we've got the suits, we've got the numbers. This adds a lot of extra depth to it. But, Rachel, I'm going to let you explain that because you do it better than I do.
Rachel Hope:Well, I think, when we're just discussing specifically the imagery as a visual prompt, how is it different to other cards with the imagery? Primarily, they're very strange images. As I said a few times now, they're very visceral. Some of them are very powerful images. Each card contains a lot of different symbols and symbols, as we know, predate language. We've got the shapes, we've got the colors, we've got characters, we've got numerals, we've got the archetype images, as Shirley said, and all these symbols together, they sort of speak to universal themes. And that's where I think it becomes so helpful with our intuitive awareness just sort of and I'm not an coach, I don't know consciously, subconsciously, just clicks into focus and we seem to be able to see more clearly and able to sort of articulate more a sense of what's happening. They just demand us to be curious in a different way, I would say and that's just with the images. Obviously, there's a lot more layers to tarot as well.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, okay, so something just popped in my mind. So thanks to you two, by the way, in our conversation. I was out west and an opportunity came up to have a tarot card reading. So maybe in the words itself is the answer, but I wanted to get some clarity. You're a therapist, a tarot therapist. I had a reading using this, I guess the structure, and what they interpreted. But what I'm hearing is in coaching, it's what the client interprets. Do you ever cross paths? Do you ever do a reading or tell them about the card or anything like that, or do you just always let the client decide what they see?
Rachel Hope:Well, I do a little bit. I feel I have a little bit more, or probably a lot more freedom, because I'm not a coach.
Garry Schleifer:Right, because you are a therapist.
Rachel Hope:Yeah, so I will lay out quite a few more cards. I'm not necessarily, in my work, mapping them onto models. That's when when Shirley and I worked together on Tarot Coach, and that's more for the support of the business and executive coaches. So a combination, Garry. They will see what they see. I have been training them over the time to become familiar with the numbers, with the major arcana journey, the hero's journey, which we could talk about a little bit. So they've got some sort of idea already.
Rachel Hope:start with the reaction to the visual and then I will give them more of an overview, because I like to see the cards, how they're all working together, because they really do do interconnect. So I have a slightly different approach. And then yes, absolutely, we will give them a rough meaning. Shirley talked about the devil earlier and you have two people with chains around them, and so I might ask them when we look at the image, what does this image sort of mean to you? And they'll say, well, gosh, if that's me, I can see some chains and I can see a devil there and say, well, do you think there could be some sort of situation that you're keeping yourself, you know, chained to or there's?.
Garry Schleifer:Chained to literally right?
Rachel Hope:Yeah, exactly, and we have actually, at this point, it's a great time time, the duality in the cards is incredible. The duality and balance. That's the biggest thing to know from tarot. That's what it highlights. Every card has an opposite, and the opposite of the devil card with two people, a naked man and woman in chains, is the lover's card, which is a naked man and woman in the Garden of Eden, and that represents freedom of choice. So the duality in the cards and helping us to see the opposites of a situation and therefore a balance, is really one of the most powerful things I think that we take from the cards. But yes, wouldn't you say Shirley? I mean, you do help by giving some meaning at a certain point, of course.
Shirley Attenborough:Well, I think, Rachel, what you've just said, in any coaching session, one of the roles of the coach is to help them look at the different perspectives, is to help them get balance. You can take them from catastrophizing to what if the opposite happens. So you can already see there's more synergy here. But you know you want your client to explore everything, not just limit themselves to one area. This was something Rachel and I were talking earlier and I said as coaches, let's be honest, we have our favorite models and we also have our favorite questions.
Shirley Attenborough:And when you've got 78 cards that are coming out, you know, pick, pick. I mean, with me I always ask them to pick blind. But we've used them both ways. You know, pick them face up, but actually the blind it seems to have more impact. They don't know what they're going to get. And then even for me as the coach, I'll sit and it'll give me a new question, a whole new way of looking at it that I haven't used before and I think, wow, so I'm getting new perspectives, my client's getting new and different perspectives. For me that's a win-win.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, clearly. Well, and to your points earlier about it being that not you, not the client, it's that what was the course I took, or systems coaching. So it's basically when you have that third entity, then the energy is on that, negative or positive sometimes, and and it's kind of like a wow, you know.
Rachel Hope:Exactly I would say you know changes. It changes the dynamics. If I'm reading for myself, it's one thing. If I'm sitting with one of my clients, for example, and we're sitting together and we're looking at the cards, so we've got a third entity in there already. It feels a bit like I've become their partner. We're looking together, neither of us are judging, neither of us are sort of in my language it almost goes as far as saying sort of we can remove ourselves a little bit from the responsibility of what's going on there. And that's very much the case, isn't it, Shirley? That having that third entity, especially I can only imagine with the coaching, because obviously when we do Tarot C oach together, I watch Shirley coaching with the cards. That changing that from the one-on-one to adding that other third entity, that dynamic change is a really powerful thing.
Garry Schleifer:That's great, well, and switching gears a little bit here, but it's still on track here. So you've mentioned a number of different ways that you use it, you incorporate it. Is there anything that really stands out that you wish all coaches would think about with any of these type of methodologies, like tarot or visual cards? What's been your experience?
Shirley Attenborough:ere me it's that getting them into their intuition, and especially if I'm with somebody that has a very cognitive role, yeah, if we can get them to start using their whole self and to start allowing not say to them, just allow anything, say anything, you want no hesitation, just look down and talk, and they do. And I think suddenly that they're getting a lot more from the session than they would from just normal talk therapy without some imagery on the table. I think being and enjoying playing with some imagery I think is really important. It's a lot of fun and it changes the coaching session.
Garry Schleifer:How about an example of something, a session, obviously without using names, that sticks in your mind as being a really like a wow, I never could have accomplished that without the tarot cards.
Shirley Attenborough:I mean, I have a couple and I have one that's really recent with a client in their own business and very independent, and through the various cards So some of the more negative appearing cards were coming up and I was asking them what does that mean to you? How's this speaking to you? What else do you need? And it became very apparent that they weren't asking for help. There were a lot of resources out there That led on to a conversation about vulnerability and how vulnerability can be powerful. What do they really want? And that client has come back to me repeatedly and you know we've all heard before, Garry. You've you've changed my life. I said I haven't.
Shirley Attenborough:mean, everything has changed, everything. The business has completely changed. And they I you allowed yourself to be really open and curious to what you could achieve, and the vulnerability aspect of that played a very large part. And I don't believe we would have got to the vulnerability without having that imagery over and over again to really get them to think about what was going on and what they weren't using and utilizing. Yeah, that was really important. The only thing I would say and we were talking about this earlier and I said okay, if there was one thing that with everybody's short of time these days, and I think the one thing is it's time I. think when you using imagery and the tarot cards in a session, the session can overrun and if somebody's suddenly getting some aha moments, you don't want to say, oh hello, we've got five minutes to go, let's go.
Shirley Attenborough:I think allowing enough time for that exploration is really important and maybe doubling up the time and saying, okay, let's have a much longer session so we can really explore this and judging, or, you know, even at the beginning of a of a whole series of coaching sessions, say, look, you know, we can use some imagery. Let's think about when that's going to be most useful to you.
Garry Schleifer:That's great. Yeah, yeah in a sense that makes so much sense because it's like, and I'm sorry, but to use a term, because it's not even the same but like an assessment. You always take some time to debrief and it's usually a bit longer. I'm training in one of them and I know it takes like hours that we have to set aside to do the work. So how do coaches learn how to put tarot cards into their business, into their coaching? Is that the Tarot Coach program that you've created?
Shirley Attenborough:We have. We have a one-day program, Garry, that at the moment it's in person. A lot of coaches have been getting in touch saying, can't you do it online? We'd really love online, so we've been sort of playing around with that a bit about how that might work. We certainly don't have anything online at the moment.
Garry Schleifer:And in- person means in the UK.
Shirley Attenborough:But at the moment we travel, Garry, we do together.
Garry Schleifer:You know you should consider it, like I think pretty soon they'll probably be calling for presenters at Converge, the Coaching Federation conference in I think it's October in San Diego. That would be something to present at. Can you imagine, oh my gosh, they'd be? Wow, exactly the impact hundreds, if not thousands of people talking about tarot coach and using tarot cards in coaching.
Shirley Attenborough:What a lovely idea. Thank you for that. Converge in San Diego? Making a note of that. We'll have to explore that, Rachel. That sounds like an amazing opportunity.
Rachel Hope:Yeah, absolutely. And you know, going back to what we were talking about earlier, with sort of not only surprises that come up, that people you're talking to, because you know it's important to say that there's three main areas of the tarot and with the major arcana, as we call it, which translates to secrets, these are the bigger internal influences of things that happen in our life and when we go forward, from those, you know, we we feel differently and this is aligned. Really, I think in the article we mentioned Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey and the major arcana aligns fully with that. So we have a fool who's actually the hero and he's going after his goal and we're made aware there's going to be challenges and ups and downs as we go along the way and we'll meet archetypes that we're very familiar with there in our every day as we go along. I mean the emperor, about somebody that's very formal, needing structure. We have mentors, we have magicians and so on. In addition to that, we have the four suits. So we have the swords, pentacles, cups and wands, and these relate specifically, which is where it dovetails map so fantastically with coaching. These are our thoughts and our beliefs and our actions and our behaviors.
Rachel Hope:And on top of that, Shells knows, I absolutely love the numbers, the numerology of it, because we go ace or one through 10. And when we understand and when the client understands these numbers, we immediately see and we're reminded that things are cyclical, things are always changing. We have this, you know, one step forward, one, maybe sometimes two or more steps back, and I think that takes the pressure off and helps us realize where we are on our journey. For a quick example, the ace is about potential. If you have the ace of swords, swords means thoughts.
Rachel Hope:So here's a spark of inspiration, here's the idea, the nurturing of a new idea, and from the one we go into the twos. Well, when something new is emerging, there's always going to have to be a way through, or a compromise or a merging or a balance. Further down the line we'll get to the sevens and their perseverance, because 10 is reaching the ultimate goal and sometimes we feel we've decided something at the beginning and we're pushing so hard, in a blinkered fashion, towards this goal and we're really pushing that round peg in a square hole that, if we remind them that fours, for example, are about stability. I remember that, that a table is stable and a table has four legs.
Rachel Hope:So, this stability. Well, let's take them back to the fours, and that was the comfort zone. What was working there? What have we changed in moving forward? So, to keep moving around through the numbers, I absolutely love that because we can go right back to what was. We're seeing the potential. It's so easy to get lost. Obviously it isn't when you've got a coach with you all the time, yeah, but it is otherwise. It's a great reminder.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah you're right, Shirley.
Rachel Hope:She does.
Shirley Attenborough:She does. You know coaching sessions aren't linear. You know you're going back, you're going forward. You suddenly change the reason you're there and I think this is where, again, I see a lot of synergy.
Garry Schleifer:And we don't hold a client to well, no, that card means this. We just let the client go with whatever their interpretation is, and we do a yes, and you know the improv style and say yes, and did you know that the four means stability? And perhaps you know, and then the question evolves what occurs for you when you think of stability?
Shirley Attenborough:And that comfort zone. Garry, you know when we all get into our lovely comfort zones.
Garry Schleifer:yes. I have a blanket in my comfort zone.
Shirley Attenborough:Also known as stagnant.
Garry Schleifer:It's a resting place is.
Rachel Hope:It is if you see the imagery of the of the four of swords. He is resting, absolutely resting, and recuperating.
Garry Schleifer:I took a picture of my reading. Now I'm gonna have to go back and see what I remember from it and I recorded it, the audio, as well from the reading and it's definitely a hero's journey. It definitely makes sense, made so much sense of what was going on with my life and that's the way I interpret it. I was looking for support so I deemed it as a supportive exercise. That's the other thing. To your point earlier was you'll introduce it when they're ready and you'll know when they're ready. It's like anything else. I don't give advice, but I sometimes will say something only when I know the client will know how to take it and use it or or lose it if it's not what's right for them.
Shirley Attenborough:Yes, we can offer, can't we?
Shirley Attenborough:I mean, like that's how I look at it. I can offer something, and then it's entirely up to them to yes, no, we'll come back to it later.
Garry Schleifer:Yes, no, renegotiate. One of my favorite things. Oh my gosh, this has been so fascinating. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation
Shirley Attenborough:For me, I'd like them to go and play with some imagery and just to let go and look at it and let themselves go crazy.
Garry Schleifer:Awesome. Yeah, any imagery and what the heck go for a tarot card reading. I did. It was so cool because it gave me some more context for your article when I was reading it and the conversation we were going to have today. So, and Rachel, what would you like people to do?
Rachel Hope:Yeah, I would say the same. To explore the cards, to see what resonates with you really and you know there are obviously, at some point, we have to start to look in the book. We get the initial from imagery. But if coaches are very interested in the tarot, then for them to learn more, particularly Emma Toynbee, Modern Day Tarot Play, or Mary Greer, who was one of the original Tarot for Yourself. There's some fantastic insights there.
Rachel Hope:Some really do go into all the Carl Jung and the archetype. So it's to see what really resonates with you and to see if yeah, I think if they're going to feel comfortable with the cards and it might be relevant for them in their practice. And if that case, that's why we've tried to make it so much more accessible with Tarot Coach, because not only is it far more, I think from what I've seen with Shirley, valuable with the client having it mapped onto these tried and tested processes, but it must surely be much more comfortable for a coach who's got the tool to start with. They use that in the way they normally would, and then we show them how to map the tarot to enhance it.
Rachel Hope:There's a structure. So that's what w e can offer.
Garry Schleifer:I'm just a little upset with you two, you know, because the coaching industry has always been known as a bit woo-woo. Here we had the opportunity to throw in tarot as a woo-woo and you made it a bloody good structure that works. Honestly.
Rachel Hope:I will add to that, Garry. I wasn't allowed to use the word universe, but now I've used it.
Garry Schleifer:Hey, that wasn't my rule listeners.
Rachel Hope:I'm remembering our listeners here and that is important to keep it relevant.
Garry Schleifer:Well, it is relevant and it had, like you said, with the 007 example, it had a different hidden meaning and it's just like AI. People, they remember the Matrix and all these other evil things that could happen, but they're not seeing the stuff that we've already been doing for like a couple of decades. They just added on and made it look better and fancier. So, anyway, we could go on about all of it. What's the best way for our listeners to reach you?
Shirley Attenborough:LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn.
Rachel Hope:yeah, I would say on Shirley's LinkedIn, because I'm thinking about coaches, your target audience, really. So I think through Shirls on and we'll just communicate together on that obviously information on further workshops and when we create something online.
Garry Schleifer:And you have a website for Tarot Coach.
Shirley Attenborough:And when we come Converge next next October, Garry.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, I'll be there. Do you have a website for Tarot Coach?
Rachel Hope:Not at the moment. Not at the moment because we only finished piloting things. So, in terms of our sort of findings and evidence, we want to make sure we're just quite exactly clear who we're talking to. But that will come.
Garry Schleifer:So there you go folks. Reach out to Shirley and she and Rachel will work together to bring you into the world of tarot and coaching. I love it. Thank you very much for being here, for writing, and if you've got something else up your sleeve, not cards but stuff, please feel free to reach out. And, let's see another article from you. It's been a great pleasure. Thank you so much, both of you.
Rachel Hope:Thank you. Enjoyed it very much, thank you.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right-hand corner. Oh I always get it wrong. There we go, or by going to choice-online. com and clicking the Sign Up Now button. Thanks again, Shirley, Rachel. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.