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Unlocking Coaching Mastery: Embracing Maturity and Unconventional Innovation with guest, Dr. David Drake
Unlock the secrets to coaching mastery as Dr. David Drake joins us to shake up traditional perceptions of coaching. Discover how embracing "The Five Maturities" can revolutionize your coaching approach, unleashing your full potential by integrating personal, spiritual, professional, social, and contextual growth. This isn't just another episode about coaching techniques—it's an invitation to bring your whole self into the practice, pushing past the confines of conventional competencies to innovate and thrive in an ever-evolving world.
Journey with us as we explore the essence of true coaching excellence, which lies not in the accumulation of techniques but in the depth of presence and self-reflection. Imagine the richness of a coaching experience enriched by diverse backgrounds, from grief counseling to entrepreneurship, all contributing to a deeper, more authentic connection with clients. We emphasize the transformative power of simplicity and humanity in coaching, encouraging practitioners to lighten their load and embrace the beauty of the unknown in the process of change.
As we wrap up, we reflect on the parallels between mastering coaching and the evolution of art, where breaking the rules can spur growth and innovation. Dr. Drake's insights offer a refreshing perspective on how personal and spiritual maturity can foster a more connected and effective coaching practice. Join us on this enriching journey of self-development and mastery, and leave inspired to explore the dynamic interplay of technology and coaching as a catalyst for meaningful behavior change.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here.
Learn more about David here.
You can get The Five Maturities Report to dive deeper into this work
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Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author behind it and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. Join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives, because that's kind of what we're all about, right? This is your go-to resource for all things coaching. So let's dive in.
Garry Schleifer:In today's episode, I'm speaking with Dr. David Drake, who's the author of an article in our latest issue "hat's Hot and what's Not what's Influencing Coaching? The article is entitled the Five Maturities A New Paradigm for Developing Yourself as a Coach. A little bit about David he's a PhD. He's the CEO of the Moment Institute. For sure know this one, he's been a pioneer in the coaching space for more than 25 years, including as founder of Narrative Coaching. He is an executive advisor for Ovita, an AI-informed platform that accelerates the development of coaching skills wouldn't mind hearing more about that, and founder of Integrative Development, a human-centered approach to learning and development that supports real change in real time. He's a thought leader for the Institute of Coaching, author of The Five Maturities: A New Paradigm for Developing Coaches. He's written 75 publications.
Garry Schleifer:I think you're the winner on this call, including as co-editor of SAGE Handbook of Coaching and author of Narrative Coaching - The Definitive Guide to Bringing New Stories to Life. David, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for writing for us. I was blown away. I have to say, you really wow, stepped way outside the box on this one, and I have to say it's a bit personal because I'm on my mastery journey to what the National Coaching Federation calls a Master Certified Coach, which a lot of our listeners know. But you really kind of put me on my ear when I was thinking about so what does that mean to me? So I loved it and it really did, like I say, it really made me think. I'm like, oh, never thought of it that way. But before we get into it, like you wrote in the article that you had done a study or a longer report. So how long did that take? Tell us a little bit about how that started and why.
David Drake:Well, it actually began back in the day when ICF used to host a research conference. In the end, I ended up being sort of a co-host of that and I was sort of newer to coaching and trying to kind of figure out like who were the people I wanted to follow and learn from. And so, because I was in the middle of my PhD, I decided to do an impromptu research project live at the conference and so I found a bunch of MCCs and people that seemed like they really knew what they were doing and interviewed them about how they got to be where they are and what they thought mastery actually meant. And out of that came created this early model. I wrote a number of papers about it.
David Drake:A couple years ago I found out that a group of colleagues from the UK had written an article using that model to help ICF write some team coaching competencies, and so I thought, well, maybe there's some sort of juice left in that.
David Drake:And so I went back to explore it and it was a fascinating adventure writing that report while as well I had long COVID, so with severe brain fog.
David Drake:But it actually just kept me really loose with the material, and yeah, and so for me, I've always followed a sort of non traditional approach to coaching and I've thought about mentors in my own life. I've thought about people I've mentored and what I've observed about coaches and coaching, and I thought so many coaches kind of leave themselves at the door and then I have to fit in this little box called coaching. And they end up not only missing a lot of what's actually happening because they're trying so hard to coach because they care, but they're also not bringing their full self. And so I thought I wanted to write something that would sort of liberate people to begin to think about how could I be my best self when I'm coaching. And the last thing I'll say just a tip of the hat to Jeff Hull, the director of Institute of Coaching. So we were having drinks here in Amsterdam a couple of years ago and he said you should write some more about this and I thought I think I will.
Garry Schleifer:And here we are.
David Drake:And we did.
Garry Schleifer:That's awesome. That's awesome. I was really had like it was wonderful to read that. It's almost like you threw that down a gauntlet. How's?
Garry Schleifer:challenge there to say, okay, competencies, take you to here and to the point you just made about bringing your best self for your client. client, how we switch from those competencies to maturities? So in the article you wrote clearly about the five competencies and then about the five maturities. Give us a little bit of a like who do you want to see this and what impact you want it to make, and who so many questions, like. I'm layering questions. I'm them, but I'm so excited. Yeah, I know, bad coach. But yeah, tell me more about what you wanted to get out of doing this and presenting it.
David Drake:So part of it was, I feel like the world's in trouble and we have all these amazing coaches that I thought wouldn't it be great if we could sort of liberate them a bit to imagine what coaching could become? I think we're still tied to a lot of things from quite a long time ago and I think it's an opportunity for us to reimagine what our clients actually need from us now. And I realized that in developmentally we tend to focus a lot on skills and so there's five masteries, but each mastery needs a maturity as a grounding, a foundation for it, otherwise it doesn't go very well. And if you look at like watching like masters in other domains, like art or music, which is one of my fascination, I love watching expert musicians. They kind of go like up, up, up to about this intermediate space and then a long plateau of just embodying the work till it becomes who they are. But then it's kind of a decline, not in skill or talent but in thinking about how they got started and they've just absorbed all the basics. But coaches keep climbing, they keep grabbing, they want more and more and more and more, which actually doesn't get you any closer to mastery. And so mastery and maturity come with a sort of surrendering to not grasping so much.
David Drake:Looking at your own life journey and particular things where you've suffered or struggled or learned some hard lessons that have made you who you are and what it allows you to do is to become a fuller, more mature human being, and I believe that, particularly through AI and a variety of other things in our society now, that, yes, it's good to be skilled at what we do, but what we're really going to need in the years ahead is a much deeper maturity to hold bigger, more complex spaces, deal with a lot of the polarities in society, deal with a lot of the hard choices we're going to have to make on the planet, and so for me, it's like just like breathing and just dropping into who can you become as a human being, to allow yourself to walk alongside another human being in honor of the journey they're on. Worry less about is it coaching and more about is it adding value to this person?
Garry Schleifer:Is it already being of service?
Garry Schleifer:Yeah. So I'll admit I'm kind of stuck in the competency conversation in talking about the maturities and whose responsibility, that's the best word I can come up with, whose responsibility is it to move to the maturities and do we need to worry about some consistent behavior so that we don't take coaching off the rails as an industry?
David Drake:So I think coaching is already off the rails as an industry, because I think the word coach means so many things now.
Garry Schleifer:It means a handbag in some stores.
David Drake:Exactly and a nice one, by the way. So I have one of the first PhDs in coaching, and so I've thought about this for a long time. Then people take a weekend course and call themselves a coach, other people just call themselves a coach with no training and so I feel like one of the things at the end of the report is an invitation to begin to think about we need more distinctions, like for even, for example, between coaching as a activity and coaching as a role, and so coaching as an activity anybody can bring to their life as a parent, as a leader, as a nurse and then with even when then I'm a coach, like how do we make distinctions of levels and who gets to decide that? And so I think there's really a huge opportunity to begin to think about how do we, first off, bring maturity into the conversation? That would be a huge win from the report.
David Drake:I'm already doing some work with a couple of the big associations who, particularly around professional development, like how would we develop coaches for this? And I'm starting a much earlier conversation about assessing coaches, and so, like there's an earned, hard-earned wisdom that comes when you've been at this for a while and been really focused on your own development. And so, like the fourth mastery is called capability and it goes with social maturity. It's the wisdom to know who I am and what I can do is relevant and timely for this coachee right now. What are they ready for right now? It doesn't matter if I've asked the world's best question, if it's irrelevant and annoying to the client. And so we tend to measure people on what they've done without any sort of marking around context.
David Drake:And you look at a lot of, actually almost all of coaching was built in industrialized white societies, so it has a very, some wonderful features as a result, and also some things that don't translate as well into their context. And so I think, as we move to more and more diversity within coaching, it behooves us to figure out what does that mean in terms of how we understand coaching to be, and so that not only are we going to develop coaches that have a richer background, but we're going to actually be more astute in how we assess them. And so, for me, I think in my world, I'm not accredited in any of these systems because I wouldn't fit very well, but my North Star or Southern Cross, for all my Aussie friends, is integrity.
David Drake:Am I in integrity with myself? Am I in integrity with my agreements with my client? Am I in integrity to any agreements I've made with a client sponsor? And so if I feel like I'm an integrity all across the board and I'm going to be able to use for this particular client things that fall outside the official scope of coaching, I will bring that any day, and so my first career was as a grief counselor, so I'm really quite comfortable dealing with people who are facing loss and yeah, and so I want to be able to bring whatever I have that's within our agreements that is of service to this other person.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, you spoke a few times about that continuous development for practitioners who work across disciplines and network. Oh my gosh, like who do we know that doesn't? I mean, I'm a publisher and entrepreneur before I was a coach. I bring the more entrepreneurial side of running business and working with people, etc. And like you bring a therapeutic trauma informed coaching side to your coaching.
Garry Schleifer:No, that's great. That's great. So you said you were talking to some of the associations.
Garry Schleifer:What would you like to see come out of it?
David Drake:We just ran a six week program to introduce the five maturities to folks in our community, and then we had a whole bunch of people outside of our community. We had 85 people in that, which for us is a lot for a program that we did not even market.
David Drake:And what I have observed is that people just appreciated the place to come, question their own maturity and just be in a space of not having to perform, not having to consume, just be themselves and where am I up to in my life and what do I need to pay attention to? So the receptivity we've gotten to this and it will evolve as I get better and better explaining it and and depicting it.
David Drake:But people are recognizing that they themselves, as coaches, are having a hard time. It's overwhelming, it's distracting, it's frightening at times looking at the world, and they want a space where they can just breathe and connect to other people. And we've had a number of people probably a quarter to a third of our participants were new to us. They'd never done anything with us before and to a person they said, um, I don't even know these people and yet the conversations we had in our breakout rooms for 40 minutes which is, you know, way longer than they often get, was just extraordinary. How did you do that? What is that that you guys can have this, and I said that's the nature of we've tried to build a maturing environment where people can come just be on the journey they're on. And I was talking to a colleague of mine who happens to be an MCC and we were talking, again going sort of like this curve that masters go through, that when you come down to it, coaching is actually quite simple. Be quiet, pay attention, reflect what you see.
David Drake:And oftentimes we observe that clients try too hard to do so much so they can use what they've been taught to use. But most of our clients don't need most of that. They just need somebody to see their pain or their joy or their hope or their worry or their aspiration and be with them while they try to figure out what they want to do with that. And so I'm hoping that, out of this, that the coaching bodies will actually, as some of them are actually starting to do with me, begin to imagine how could we rethink what it means to be a masterful coach.
David Drake:And then, secondly, I would hope for the coaches that are listening into the podcast, that you just allow yourself to be more fully human and not worry so much about having to memorize all the stuff you were taught and use all the tools you were given. The title of our six-week program was called Lighten Your Load, which was we talked, we had this visual.
Garry Schleifer:I feel lighter just hearing the title
David Drake:Exactly. And we had people just were and they said but we didn't actually do anything.
David Drake:I said, well, the point of this is not to do stuff.
Garry Schleifer:Lighten in your load, not over load
David Drake:Not download a tome about lightening your load, which just makes it worse and you know, but just the freedoms. Like what if I didn't have to carry all this stuff? And I feel like, yes, it's important to be informed by science and research and kind of know what you're doing. I look at those as givens. You have to know what you're doing, but in the end, so much around change, around progress are mysteries. I have to sitting in the mystery with our client who doesn't know either, otherwise they wouldn't be talking.
David Drake:And then be with that, which requires the maturity. Like you notice a mature coach because they're comfortable in silence. They're comfortable pausing. They're comfortable just saying a few very direct and loving words. They're at ease with themselves. They can self-regulate. They can help their clients self-regulate, and they're using what they're knowing not to say I'm going to be a good coach, but I'm going to bring out this in the other person. Because one of the things in the report was, if all the research is right, which I do believe it is, that client and client related factors are by far the most significant influence on outcomes, then really our only job is to mature our clients. That's our only job so they can do more of this for themselves. And so in order for us to do that, we have to be able to mature ourselves because we can't walk any farther than they have. And so if we want to walk with them, we've got to be able to do that work for ourself.
David Drake:And so it means processing grief and losses in your life, dealing with your own shadow, dealing with your own trauma, dealing with your own selves that may or not get in the way and or be overlooked in you. And so we've just found that, I don't know how many thousands of coaches I've trained by now, but the people that have done the best are not the smartest or fastest necessarily. They're the ones that were willing to do the work on themselves, because then the rest of it becomes really easy.
Garry Schleifer:You know I'm going to use your word integrity, but I would also add to that in based on what you just said. Authenticity, because one of the things I know that, and a gentleman wrote a book about this. So I'm gay and being openly gay gives me an authenticity that even some street people don't have because they're not willing to be open about who they are and what that means and what their desires are.
Garry Schleifer:And he wrote a book called Ray Riglioso "Gay Men And The New Way Forward, and he kind of said, So who wouldn't want an openly gay coach? Because they've done the work on themselves, it's something come out and to know what to say, what to do, when to be out, when to not. Like a lot of work on yourself just in that one realm. So that's why I would add in authenticity to it. And the MCC coaches, especially the ones on my editorial board, well all of them actually have exactly what you're talking about. Sometimes I think our editorial board call is more for me about just being amongst that maturity and I thank you because that's that's a word different than wisdom. Wisdom is up here, and I feel maturity more of a holistic thing.
David Drake:Yeah, yeah, and so with the five maturities, where each one is sort of related to a particular aspect of becoming better at what we do, and so it's just meant, not as a map of the entire coaching universe, but to say, when you're in a moment with a client that's maybe not going so well, or you're reflecting on a session, or even when you've had an argument with your loved one at home, right, which of your maturities could have used some attention in that moment in time?
Garry Schleifer:Well, and our listeners, as I'd love for them to subscribe and get the article, etc. But I just want to remind them that the maturities are personal, which relates to the competency of capacity. Spiritual, which relates is the foundation for clarity. Professional, which is the foundation for competency.
Garry Schleifer:But of course that's one of five. Social maturity, which is the foundation for capability, and contextual being the foundation for credibility. So to your point about working on your maturities. There like okay, where does this one fit in and how does it relate to the competencies, the five? Because it's, you know, it's just, it's not just, it's yeah, your turn. I just get so excited reading this one. It's like it puts us on notice that competencies are not the answer.
David Drake:No, not at all.
David Drake:I mean, the thing I tell my students, if I'm training new chefs, I want to know that they know what end of a knife to hold. There's basics, right? But advancing as a coach is just not more competency. Matter of fact, if you look at, like all the painters that we admire, the masters of painting, they all broke new ground, they created new genres of painting, they sort of flipped off the establishment and so they actually broke all the rules once they had learned them. So you think about when you force people too much into a competency model, it would be like giving Van Gogh a paint-by-numbers kit for his birthday.
Garry Schleifer:Because we want to know that he can fit within the box and therefore keep this particular standard for coaching. And I get that at the beginning. Like I'm a PCC for coaching but my question is what's beyond MCC? But maybe it's not even what's beyond MCC. It's what's from PCC forward. MCC is just the competency of the maturities that I need to work on. But working on the other ones would be more equally as important, if not more.
David Drake:Yeah and so you think about, like in my work with Ovita, one of the things we're working on right now is sort of a new generation of the platform using a lot of my work around, how do you help people actually change behaviors? And so as part of that, let's imagine you get some feedback from one of your sessions. You watch the video on Ovita and both the AI and maybe your mentor, coach or both point out hey, you know, there's a really short gap between when the client stops talking and you start talking. I wonder what it would be like for you to pause longer, give them some more space, let it land in the room and really, before you leap in, really get a feel for what is this. And so let's imagine I gave you that feedback, so I'd watched you coach, I'm sure it's not true for you, but imagine it was. And then you're like, oh great, one more thing I've got to remember. I don't know why I don't pause and so most people don't really understand, how do I get better by becoming more aware of myself?
David Drake:And so one of the things we're doing in the platform is we're taking some of these core skills and they've worked with ICF on this as well and say let's take pausing, for example. It's one of my favorites. What are the things that a masterful coach does that allows them to pause that a beginner doesn't? Well, one of the things we can anchor on is their breathing. So if I want to help somebody that's eager and excited and wants to be helpful and they leap right in, I might just say to them, I'd like you to practice. I'm going to talk and then stop, and then, when I stop talking, I would like you to exhale.
Garry Schleifer:I knew already what you were going to say, but I just broke the exhale.
David Drake:Because I've automatically gained you five or seven seconds where you can't talk, and in that five or seven seconds, if you're even remotely aware, you recognize oh, I don't really need to talk right now, oh, I could just wait, oh. And so just by getting you to pause, your body's already saying, oh, we must be needing to relax right now because he's not breathing, so everything must be fine. And so now we have one of the pillars that goes into pausing, and then we might work on their mindset, and we might work on their self-regulation energetically. We might work on what do they think is their role at that point in time, and then all of these little micro skills add up to naturally learning how to pause.
David Drake:As opposed to, I'm going to a class on pausing. No, you don't need a class on pausing. It is just more stuff
Garry Schleifer:Yeah. You know, that really speaks to something that I've been hearing a lot from our writers and our interviewees, and that is that a lot of people don't have a path for their self-development. They feel that the next thing is a certificate, as we mentioned earlier and what you're implying, and I'm buying into 100 percent, is working on self, bringing self to there and in service of the client, obviously. Wow.
David Drake:And so like for me at this stage and actually for quite some time, I don't go to coaching programs. I don't even go to coaching conferences that much, unless I'm speaking or seeing old friends, and I said because that's not the domain where I'm going to get my next level of development. And so I might go and study Feldenkrais, or now I'm doing this deep dive again on Taoism, and it's really giving me some new language about how I've always coached, but giving me now some disciplines about how to get even better at that. And so my invitation to your listeners is you can download the paper from our website at the Moment Institute.
David Drake:But look at the maturities and say where would I like to begin? Don't try to tackle all five, just pick one. Yeah, and say just pick one and coaches again, we tend to overcomplicate things, and so we tell our students just pick one thing with your client, just one. Even that's going to be big for them. But with the maturities, pick one you think might speak to where you'd like to go next in your life or your career, and really just look at that within yourself and what could you do. What do you already have in your library, among your friend group, your coaching groups, whatever that would help you deepen your maturity in that way, in that space.
Garry Schleifer:Okay, I'm gonna ask you about one then.
David Drake:What's that?
Garry Schleifer:I'm gonna ask you about one for myself. Give a good example for our listeners and I'll tell you afterwards why I'm picking this one but spiritual maturity. So what does that mean to you? Like what? What should that mean to me as a mature coach?
David Drake:Yeah, so it's not necessarily spirituality with a capital S. In the beginning I called that relational maturity, but then it didn't feel quite big enough. It is for me from an indigenous perspective, but for most of us in the west it's too limited to like romantic relationships or whatever right. So spiritual for me, it has to do with our cosmology, our philosophy, kind of how do we orient ourself in the world? What lenses are we looking through the world? And so it has a lot to do with our capacity to see, and the more we can see, the more we have available to us as a palette of colors to work within a coaching session. And when coaches are trying really hard to coach, they're missing most of what's actually happening in the session, because the stories we're telling ourself completely shape what we see.
David Drake:And so one of the exercises we do, and I'll give a shout out to Heather Platt, a fellow Canadian who came to one of our events in Toronto many, many years ago, and Heather went on to do some extraordinary work in holding space and she wrote a beautiful parable for the narrative coaching book about park benches, which was her experience at the workshop I did, and so one of the things that we do is invite people just to go for a walk in a park near you and sit on the bench and watch people, and without judgment, without frames, without anything, just watch them. Watch them how they move, how they talk, what their energy is like, and you realize there's a thousand ways to live, 10,000 ways to live.
David Drake:And so you start to realize all blind spots, things you don't even see or things you judge and therefore don't look at um the assumptions and and um heritages you have, that you unconsciously project under your clients. Well, they must want that too, and in reality, they probably don't. So it's the ability to be fully present and completely non-attached, because we're not caught up in our stories about who we think they are, who they should be, and so we can see them for all of they are it from their worldview and not from ours.
Garry Schleifer:Wow, just put that in the conversation about coaching. Right, working with the maturities, working on self and coming to a coaching call like sitting on a park bench.
David Drake:It should feel just like that, and so we want the client to leave with a lighter load as well, and we want them to feel like they've been in a wonderful and beautiful human conversation. Yeah, and there's a great quote that we adapt a bit, but every client comes with an innate healer in themselves and our job is to activate that so they can heal themselves.
David Drake:And so, again, my biggest soapbox in this place, there's many to choose from, but maybe my biggest is I just invite coaches please stop coaching. Please just stop. Just be quiet for a minute and breathe and notice what's actually happening to this beautiful human in front of you. And if there comes a time when something you know about coaching could help them, great.
David Drake:But to think I'm coaching them, as you've already like I'm only I'm going down this road.
Garry Schleifer:Right, yeah, and you're also creating a level of like I know something you don't, like a power dynamic. I'm working a lot on, and a shout out to Janet Harvey, I think she was the one who pointed this out to me, about like constantly bringing yourself to the level of where your client's at and, in fact, like truly walking with the client and seeing what they see?
David Drake:yeah, and we've all been taught that for years and for decades, but it's it's harder than it looks. I mean, but it comes back to it's not hard to do, it's hard to grow ourself so that we can do that. Because, yeah and so yeah, we just want to encourage people to just focus on what needs to mature here in myself, as the coach, in them, in our relationship, you know, and that would allow us to have a greater ability to for the client to do new things.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, wow, well said, I would love to end on that point and ask you what would you like our audience to do as a result of the article and this conversation? One thing you mentioned was to look at the full report at themomentinstitute. com. There we go, and themomentinstitute. com, and what else? Is there anything else you'd like them to do other than, of course, read the article and pick maturity?
David Drake:And we've got a retreat coming up in January where we're going to take a deep dive around your own journey in life to actually walk you through some of our practices that help you with each of the five maturities to get you started and then invite you to pick others that work for you.
Garry Schleifer:And we can find out about your retreats at themomentinstitute. com?
David Drake:We can. They're called the Guiding Lights Retreat and it's sort of bringing back what I did live around the world, I think in 23 countries at one point, and we're doing them again now virtually and hopefully, in time, we'll do them live again, but for now we'll do them virtually. I just feel like we, like I said before, where we need to become better humans.
David Drake:In some ways, coaching has not kept up with who many of us have become, and what we're needing now is something that better coaches have done for a long time and, I hadn't thought of it this way, so I I appreciate this, Garry, but part of the value of the five maturities is the road. Mastery is not a destination, neither is maturity. It's a lifelong journey. Right, you're always in some way or another, but through the five maturities now, if you're a newer coach or a younger coach, you think how would I ever get there? Yeah, there'll be education, there'll be, you know, feedback, there'll be supervision, there'll be whatever, but ultimately it's about what can you do to develop yourself and to be able to kind of move into spaces that would allow you to to really grow yourself and for me, that, I think, is where we're all being called to go right now.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, wow. Well thank you and lots of gratitude for you writing the article and for being with us here today to expand a bit more on it. What's the best way for people to reach you?
David Drake:There's a form on our website, you can reach me there. You can just reach me at david@ the moment institute. com. Yeah, I'm always looking for projects where we people are interested in embedding the five maturities and really starting these dialogs. And I think if enough coaches start asking for more, then other players in the game might have to offer them more.
Garry Schleifer:Well, I will point them your way as I talk to them and I talk to a lot of them, especially for writing and interviewing things like that. So wait for the end of my sign off today. I think you'll like it.
David Drake:Okay.
Garry Schleifer:I want to thank you again for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. An absolute delight. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, which probably brought you here to this one. If you're not a subscriber to choice magazine, you can sign up for a free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right corner or by going to choice-online. com and clicking the sign up now button. Now wait for it, David. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.