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Episode 131: Unlocking Coaching Transformation: Embracing AI Integration and Overcoming Fear with guest, Julie Vander Meulen
Discover how AI is reshaping the coaching landscape with insights from Julie Vander Meulen, a leading advocate for women's empowerment and a pioneer in AI integration within coaching. In this episode of Beyond the Page, Julie shares her transformative journey of weaving AI tools like ChatGPT into her coaching practice, revealing how these technologies foster creativity and aid in overcoming the fear many coaches have about AI. Learn how embracing AI can be a game-changer, transforming potential threats into powerful allies in the coaching industry.
As we unravel the dual nature of AI, Julie and I discuss its impact on both professional environments and personal coaching techniques. From creating customizable AI tools to ensuring data privacy and ethical standards, this conversation highlights the importance of training AI to meet individual needs. We explore the balance between augmented and generative AI and how these innovations are shaping the future of coaching, allowing for more personalized and expansive client experiences.
The conversation delves into the potential of AI to democratize coaching services, making them more accessible and affordable. While some clients may always value human interaction, AI offers an exciting, cost-effective alternative for others. By integrating AI into their practices, coaches can extend their reach and enhance their offerings, ensuring sustainability and relevance in a rapidly evolving world. Join us as we explore the ethical considerations and professional standards of AI coaching, and how engaging with these technologies can lead to personal growth and professional evolution.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here.
Learn more about Julie here.
Sign up for Julie's Sunday Sanctuary newsletter which is packed with introspective questions and ideas for the ambitious individual to set a positive intention for the new week to come .
Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com
Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. Hi, I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author, Julie, sitting here, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. Join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and, of course, make a real difference in our clients' lives. Remember, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching, so let's dive in.
Garry Schleifer:In today's episode, I'm speaking with women's empowerment and thought leader, Julie V an der Meulen, who is the author of an article in our latest issue What's Hot and What's Not ~ What is Influencing Coaching? Her article is entitled From Threat to Ally ~ AI in Tomorrow's Coaching Landscape. A little bit about Julie. She's a rising expert in women's empowerment and the creator of Own Your Life Academy, a platform designed to inspire ambitious women to live authentically aligned lives. As a thought leader on good girl syndrome, Julie helps women break free from societal pressures and embrace their potential. Sorry, but good girl syndrome. You have to tell us about that. A deep passion for rethinking coaching practices, she combines innovative approaches with heartfelt insights to drive transformative growth for her clients. Through her work, including her popular Sunday Sanctuary newsletter, Julie fosters introspection and action among women striving to balance ambition with well-being.
Garry Schleifer:Julie, thank you so much for joining me today.
Julie Vander Meulen:Hi Garry. Thank you for having me again.
Garry Schleifer:Again, exactly. A repeat writer and repeat guest.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you, thank you, and thank you so much for writing this article. What inspired you to write about AI and coaching?
Julie Vander Meulen:About two years ago when ChatGPT came out, my full-time job was not being a coach, yet I was an editor for a big American platform, and so I had the privilege of using ChatGPT from the very beginning, and so it infused everything that I do. Like in everything that I do, I started using it not just for content, but for brainstorming and stuff like that, and so I realized that I have grown. Two years is a lot of playing every single day with AI, right, and so I had a little bit of an advance, I realized, compared to a lot of my friends who were coaches, who had not been using it and or who were a bit more resistant than I was.
Julie Vander Meulen:And so in the past year or so, I've been having a lot of beautiful but sometimes challenging conversations with my friends who a lot of them are coaches, and because they were either resistant or, according to me, were living in a bubble, an illusion that AI would not change coaching and so then I started having these conversations and saying I think you should pay attention to AI because whether you like it or not, it is going to change. It is changing our world right now and it's probably going to change how we work as well so you better do something about it or think about it or see how you can use it. And so when I saw an opportunity to write something about what's hot and what's not right now, I was thinking well, AI certainly is for our profession.
Julie Vander Meulen:And maybe it's time I can give my two cents on why it's important to co-create with it rather than just reject it. So yeah it inspired me.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, no, thank you so much and it was amazing and I love it. I'm just looking, been rereading it, of course, before the call and I think the big word that sticks out for me is fear, that people are afraid of it, and fear is usually about the unknown. And you're helping us. We did an issue last year about three months after ChatGPT launched on AI and coaching. We continue to have the conversation because you and I both know this is not going away. It's like you said it's already integrated in your life on a daily basis. I don't even know how much it's integrated in mine. I see it on Zoom and on gmail and all kinds of places where it's already a part of my life, and I didn't know that it was a part of my life. So that's the big thing too.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah, no for sure, and I think that I mean we are talking to other coaches as well. I think it's what we see in our clients. What we help them deal with is that when there is fear, there's part of it that you don't control, there's part of it that you do control. And I think it's interesting that we can be so savvy when it comes to other people's lives. We know what levers to pull, but then when it comes to us and our profession, and then AI, which is very uncertain for how the world is going to become then we kind of lose our own tools and our own good thinking.
Garry Schleifer:Okay, now let me piggyback on that.
Garry Schleifer:You said uncertain, but really aren't we still in charge of what it does, how it thinks and the results it produces?
Julie Vander Meulen:Well, I would say in part, you can be if you want to be. I mean, I have zero control over how ChatGPT works. I assume I could if I wanted to I could be a voice saying that it's good, it's not good and giving feedback if I wanted to. I don't, but I could and I certainly can. If I stay inside ChatGPT, I certainly can train it to behave in a specific way that suits me and my needs and what I think is good or not, so I can create a bubble of certainty inside of this.
Garry Schleifer:And that's a good point. So bubble, so ChatGPT is an open, what do you call it? Open source, open availability to everybody. And I know for a fact through some of my clients, one of them works for a legal firm that they will not allow their people to use it, because the information goes not only do you get information, but that information comes from other people. So you can't, you know, companies limit or don't allow it. But then they create their own bubble so they have a mini version of AI just for themselves that they can put all the cases in and pull in all the legal files, but nothing goes out and I think maybe that's more where I see control, because the coaching industry is developing that as well and creating the bubbles. And aren't we in control of those bubbles, right? I don't know.
Julie Vander Meulen:I think about the bubble, I think you would be best suited with what you just told me about that. You have your own AI. You would be best suited to tell us more about that. But what I can say about this is that I see it more as maybe it's a meta vision of what control can be, but my illusion is that the only thing that I'm in control of is myself to a certain extent.
Julie Vander Meulen:So, in that vein of thinking this way, then I'm thinking one of the tools I have to face an uncertain world is to best equip myself to face it and one of the ways to best equip myself to face it is if I constantly learn and I constantly adapt and so one of those ways of controlling is growing and learning, and I find that through AI I have been able to do that much faster and much better than I would have been if I were on my own or just with my friends coaches. So I think in that way I'm also creating a bubble. That's the type of bubble that I'm seeing, but I'm curious about your own bubble.
Garry Schleifer:Well, so I am creating a virtual coach Garry. I'm working with an organization, amigo. ai, out of New York, and it is it's inside of their bubble. So they have this bubble and it serves virtual coaches and there's my bubble within the bubble and I love this word bubble because I meet with them every week to talk to them and give them feedback and I want to bring that up when it comes to like ethics and all that stuff. They make changes based on what a lot of coaches, they have about a thousand now, about 1000 coaches are saying their client experiences. So, for example, what versus how questions. There's apparently coaches like more what questions than how questions, but not me.
Garry Schleifer:So I get to change my algorithm that instead of like, let's say, 70/30, it's 60/40. T hat kind of thing. One of my testers noticed that and brought that to my attention. So I'm still in control of it and I can go into any part of the transcript and look at the reasoning that the AI gave for the question, the reply and the question and then I can say, well, no, I wouldn't do that. Here's what I would do. They toss that into the algorithm and then it becomes more like me.
Julie Vander Meulen:Wow, you know what came to me when you said that? That it's a beautiful process for the AI to become more like you, and at the same time, I'm thinking, I assume, if it were me, I think I would be super curious to also see what the AI says that is potentially a mistake in the moment but can expand my own thinking.
Garry Schleifer:Exactly, which is why I taking take the transcripts and I am going to have them mentor coach reviewed to ensure that it's meeting with the guidelines of the International Coaching Federation. And I don't know if that goes quality or ethics or both.
Julie Vander Meulen:Both probably.
Garry Schleifer:Right, but it's like I can see where this stuff comes from. And then the beauty of it all is and, you say it in your article. So there's two things that listeners should remembe r. There's augmented AI and there's generative AI, and my understanding of augmented, which you wrote about in here, is the stuff that supports us, like what we're talking about here. And, under that guise of augmented, what I'm also learning is that the AI is like an elephant and never forgets, and so what it does is it helps me be a better coach because it remembers things that the client said in previous sessions which I might not necessarily remember. So the AI could use that, bring it forward and help the coach, and I truly feel and agree with you that it's a human connection, and so my offering for the virtual coach Garry is that it also includes optional, you're not forced into it, but to have calls with me to take it a little bit further.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah.
Garry Schleifer:A lot of fun. It's fun.
Julie Vander Meulen:There's two things that I was thinking when you were just saying that. The one thing is, I think I wrote about it in the article as well, about democratization.
Julie Vander Meulen:I was just telling you that I studied political science right, and so it's always things that are in my mind that I'm thinking okay, so, for example, I want to have a fair wage, right, so I want to live well, and I want to have a specific target niche and, you know, specific clients, and so on and so forth.
Julie Vander Meulen:But then I'm also thinking, I would love to be able to help as many people as I want. Where do I find the balance between those things? And I'm saying this because what you just mentioned reminds me of that. That what is possible with this is you, as Garry, you have a limited amount of time and you also need a specific income and you want a specific lifestyle, so there are limits to what you can do, just as you. But if you have a tool that mimics you and is able, to some extent, to contribute in some way without you being present, you are able to help way more people as well, which I think I wasn't thinking about it before, I wasn't planning this, but when I heard you, I was like, oh, that's so cool. It is so cool because then you can impact more people in different ways, you know, at different times of the day and all sorts of things.
Garry Schleifer:24 hours a day actually.
Julie Vander Meulen:Cool. Very cool. Very, very cool.
Garry Schleifer:You bring up a really good point, and I was looking for the the number, but there are, let's say, 20,000 ICF certified coaches in the world and there are 9 billion people.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah.
Garry Schleifer:We're afraid that AI is going to take over nine billion people's coaching requirements? I don't think so. Because just like oh, here's a great example just like choice Magazine, we still deliver it in print because there are people that just love the tactile version. We could offer it in just digital, but we lose a whole segment of our customer base and it's the same with coaching. People will want to have humans.
Garry Schleifer:Our job, as you said quite well in the article, is to distinguish ourselves and what a beautiful thing to use the AI coaching to make us better coaches, to distinguish ourselves from our own AI coach.
Julie Vander Meulen:Absolutely, and you know, in what you just said as well, maybe it's because I'm a bit of a contrarian sometimes, but I'm also thinking when my friends, who are coaches, tell me that, oh, people will never want to be in contact with an AI, they want a real person and stuff like that, I'm thinking, have you thought of the opposite of people who do not want to be in contact with a person for some reason. Because they are ashamed?
Julie Vander Meulen:There's, you know, a specific matter but who would feel more comfortable with an AI because it's more affordable, because there are other conditions, because reasons that we don't see, because we love the personal connection that maybe other people don't. So I'm thinking there's also it's also a tool to maybe touch more lives that that people who right now do not have a coach might have access to one.
Garry Schleifer:Exactly, and they can't afford a one-on-one coach.
Julie Vander Meulen:Exactly.
Garry Schleifer:So this way it it's affordable and it still won't reach 100% of the people unless, right. Unless there's some you know well, not everyone will be able to afford mine, but it's not expensive. That's the other thing, yeah world, so my world. raise I will write that Question. You describe AI as both a threat and an ally. Elaborate on what you mean by that, the dual perspective? I mean, we've covered some of the W hat. What's, what are people's perceived threats? What do you think is a threat, a real threat?
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah covered some of it, but to me, the real threat is not necessarily ai in itself, AI it's the ignorance about what it is and it's the um, pretending like it's not there.
Julie Vander Meulen:To me, that's the real threat. Not seeing reality as it is and not dealing with things as they come. I think that's the real threat of them becoming obsolete, not right now, but in the next few years, because the world will have changed and then, as a coaching profession, we might, not everyone. You are on the forefront. I hope I am too in different ways, but I think some people will be left behind not because they were not good enough in the first place, but because they were not adapting to the reality of the world, which happens in any type of revolution or change. So to me, that's the real threat. The real threat is hiding or pretending like it's not happening, or creating stories in our minds of what's not possible with it. I think there are other threats, but maybe as coaches, we have a little say into what is going to happen with AI.
Julie Vander Meulen:I don't think we're the major, the main you know stakeholder about what's going to happen with that, but we can maybe trust also in our society. Not everything is perfect, but there are people who really care about that and who make sure that the criteria for how things are being made and ethical considerations are being taken care of, and so maybe that's also a leap of faith on my end. But I'm thinking there could be a threat, but there's also a lot of opportunities. And again, with the control, I think then if you change into it's an opportunity and then I framed it as, because it looked pretty to say an ally or a threat, but then if it's an ally, that's what you did. You co-create with AI. It's what you described. You literally co-create with AI. You create something then AI creates something then you mold it again and it does it again and it's beautiful.
Garry Schleifer:And I'm having fun doing it oh, and um, I know this recording will come out later, so but what I'm doing today is recording my voice so it that that will voice talk . And, and you know what it's fun because I feel like I'm in control of the process, the outcome, the ethics, all of be and I'm finding I'd rather be doing that than being in the background, like you said, and just pretending it Right, and how can I a bloody choice magazine. It's a global thing. I should be engaged in some way or another, and I've chosen the of embracing it and learning from it. And to our listeners and readers, feel free to reach out to me. Like you, I am contrarian, provocative. I'd. I'd like to hear your opinions. I'd like you to test my Garry, gary, and see what it is that you're really afraid of, and talk to me more about what are the controls that I see in place and allay your fears. I'm happy to do that.
Julie Vander Meulen:cool about what you just said is also and also, I think it's a great reminder of why AI could not be a threat, if we wanted to see that this way that it's possible is ally, that we can constantly change it. This is yours and so, based on feedback, you can constantly improve it in every way, and so if you realize that, for some reason, there's a breach in ethics that you hadn't foreseen, for example, you can change it from one minute to the other. It's in your control, which is amazing, and every other thing you can control as well, and you can change it and improve it based on other people's feedback, which I think I love that I love this process.
Garry Schleifer:I'm waiting for the guys that are developing this to give me a summary of all the coaching, so they have a background before I meet with the client for a live call.
Julie Vander Meulen:Oh, beautiful.
Garry Schleifer:Right, can you imagine?
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah, and the other thing that I was thinking earlier and I forgot I always say that I have two points and then I say one and I forget the rest. It's typical of me. Now I remember it is when you mentioned your own A, I was thinking how interesting because you can also see patterns that as a person, we see some patterns and as a coach, that's what we do. In the background we notice some patterns and we help people through them. But the AI is, like you said, it remembers everything, so you can see patterns and other things that we can not notice with just our ear or our eye.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, exactly. So yeah very cool and you know you brought up another idea that I'm going to ask them for is not only the ability to recap. I mean Zoom does it right now. You can turn Zoom on and it does an AI summary and it's useful. That's the other thing about things. AI will do whatever it does and, yes, you can make it better and that it'll never be perfect, at least not for now. I don't think it's self learning. We're teaching it what we wanted to do by putting in, giving input, asking different questions, challenging it, things like that.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah, absolutely, and changing it and changing ourselves in the process. I have become, maybe it's my illusion, maybe I'm a terrible writer, but my sensation is, you know, I'm living in my own bubble, but my sensation is, in every way that I've used AI, if I were to not use AI when I don't need to use AI, I'm a better writer, I'm a better marketer, I'm a better coach, I'm a better you know, because I've been using it and asking it for feedback and it's given me ideas I would never have had.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah.
Julie Vander Meulen:And there are limits, of course, because you repeat what other people say, so you have to have your own take on things, but I find it's useful. Very useful.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, again, that's augmented AI and I do use it from time to time, or my team uses it. I'll ask a question like what are the hot topics coaches are dealing with with their clients right now? Because people are feeding that information into that or it's researching it and finding it. And then I look at it and I go, okay, I haven't heard that one. I haven't heard that one. So I then take a look around and see is it true? Right, so it's merely a supportive. It's like going to a library and getting a book and the book will tell you what it tells you, and then it's up to you to decide how much you use the learnings from the book.
Julie Vander Meulen:I would just say that, two things that are different from a book.
Julie Vander Meulen:I completely agree with what you just said.
Julie Vander Meulen:I just think that on top of that, it's very specific. Which in a book, I used to be a researcher so I used to, but back in like a few years ago, so I had no AI. I was going through the book and having to read the whole thing to realize I only needed that paragraph right and I read the whole book, which now I think this is also very useful, that you can be very specific. My question can be extremely specific and then there's something that is replying specifically to what I'm asking and it's also creative, so it's not just fixed. For example, if I'm wondering if this specific question that I'm asking in coaching is it powerful enough, or if I had this specific type of client, how would they feel potentially about it? It gives me ideas about what's possible and I have three ideas in my mind and the AI could have 25. And 20 could be rubbish, but there's still five that are good that I wouldn't have had.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, that's the other thing to remember. AI can give you rubbish in your mind and it's because of what you've decided is rubbish. It's pretty good at bringing up some good stuff, but I still feel that the final say is up to me as the user of, let's say, ChatGPT, but I also feel I have the final say in my virtual coach.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yeah.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, for sure.
Julie Vander Meulen:Even more with your closed process. Even more. What a fascinating conversation.
Garry Schleifer:Obviously, we could talk about this forever. Forever. What else do you want the audience to know about AI? You've been pretty clear on what you want them to do. Do you have any concerns?
Julie Vander Meulen:I think I could have concerns in general about where AI is going and who is going to be in control of things like that, I think like most people. But I don't have these concerns for our industry. The concerns that I have for our industry is that I'm afraid we, as a practice in general, not you or me, but I am just afraid that some people will miss a chance with this and will stay in a fast type of mentality. It's what I'm worried about for our industry. Now, with the world, I cannot anticipate what AI is capable of doing. I have seen some things that could be used in war or stuff like that that do scare me. I will not lie right, but it has nothing to do about my industry and I'm not an expert to be able to you know accurately know what's dangerous or not, but it looks dangerous sometimes.
Garry Schleifer:You know you bring up a good point. At this point, it's a volunteer position for AI companies that deal with coaching to be in conversation with associations like EMCC in Europe and ICF globally International Coaching Federation. The concern for me that, now that you bring it up, is the ones that resist or say I don't care about what your industry is. I'm gonna set up this AI coaching bot model and it's going to dilute. So who's is it now? The you know, whose responsibility is to go and engage with those people and say, hey, you know that's not really coaching. Are we powerful enough? Are we allowed to? Do we have a right to go out say stop doing that?
Julie Vander Meulen:But you know what I'm thinking about that, Garry, and maybe again it's the contrarian in me who wants to say that it's possible you push back, but my, my hallucination is that our industry right now is becoming more and more, how can I say, there's credentials, there's diplomas and so on, but we are still very young as a profession and there's still a lot of people that you meet that are coaches. There's this whole discussion, too right, who is a coach, who isn't a coach? What is a coach? What is a practice? You know like all these things are not so clear yet for our profession because it's new. So I think it adds a layer to something that already exists. I'm sure you do too. Sometimes we meet coaches and we see them doing things or saying things and you think you know, where are the eight criteria from ICF? You know, where are all the different things?
Garry Schleifer:here's, and can an AI coach be reported for ethical or professional conduct violations?
Julie Vander Meulen:No idea, I suppose they will be.
Garry Schleifer:You know, that goes into the ethical thing. Like the us that are doing it, I know a few of the people I've met with them already that are also doing it using the same company and we're of of good heart. And one of them said and brilliantly I was just like, oh, I wish I thought of that, but I'm kind of doing it.
Garry Schleifer:He wants his AI coach to pass an MCC exam. I guess I'm doing the same thing in that I'm gonna have my transcripts, not the recordings per se, but the transcripts reviewed an MCC coach, who by the way, is skeptical and fearful and concerned but want to get under the hood and I am giving her the opportunity to get under the hood and take a look. Seriously, I'm inviting people and thank you for offering as well to take a look at this virtual coach and give me some like really contrarian feedback that you'd like to do. You know, and yeah, thank you. I'm just so excited about it and I think it's the new frontier for me. I think it's going to be a low cost model to feed into my higher cost coaching offerings.
Julie Vander Meulen:I think so too. I think so too. I'm hoping, at least, it will be amazing for you and what you're trying to build, and I'm sure it will also, I think you do to, about contribution and impact, and I can also see the impact you will have, like how this spreads your impact as well in the world, which is beautiful. You already do that through choice. Now you do that through your
Garry Schleifer:Oh my gosh, I just thought of something. Well, this particular company also does work with a coach who has a program. Oh no, maybe I shouldn't say I don't have her permission yet, but it's taken her library of her course and adding an AI coach, mentor, teacher to it.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yes.
Garry Schleifer:I have a library of 23 years of.
Julie Vander Meulen:Oh, what's what you just? Yes, oh, that is.
Julie Vander Meulen:I would like some credits for being there for this innovation.
Garry Schleifer:I'm thinking I have 23 years of content that I could put in my bubble, or I can create a choice bubble. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, Julie, I just figured it out. This is the way I can now. I used to worry about people trying to search and find things. What if I didn't? Oh my gosh, I gotta get a hold of those guys and tell them I got something else going that sounds amazing.
Julie Vander Meulen:That sounds amazing.
Garry Schleifer:Oh, my goodness. It'll be the choice version and I hope that I can connect it with other people's too. I've got some other people in mind. Oh, talking to her tomorrow. Oh, this is brilliant.
Julie Vander Meulen:You know, what's so cool is that I'm thinking of the person who's watching this or listening to this, and they will literally be able whenever this comes out. You will already have made some progress in that.
Garry Schleifer:To our listeners, by the time you listen to this, AI Coach Garry will be live and available, and there'll be some information down below, as well as the information that Julie's going to give us about what she would like our audience to do as a result of this article and this conversation.
Julie Vander Meulen:Well, I would just invite you all to come connect with me on LinkedIn, which is where I spend most of my time. If you want to reach out to me, write me a message or just follow what I'm doing. And then maybe the other thing is, like you said in the beginning, I have a free newsletter every Sunday and it's literally it's not me saying anything about my news, it's just, I create this introspective type of ritual that every Sunday it's specifically for women, but it doesn't matter who you are, if you like it, if you want to think about the next week that is coming, and realigning yourself for the next week that's coming.
Julie Vander Meulen:I think that's a beautiful tool to use. I have a lot of people on there and it's free and it's beautiful and we all connect in this beautiful way. I receive a lot of replies afterwards of like how people change their lives from one week to the other. I really love it, so I hope you will join me.
Garry Schleifer:Remind me the website.
Julie Vander Meulen:I almost forgot, like last time, so the URL is www. ownyourlife. academy/ newsletter.
Garry Schleifer:And say that again because there's a little pause.
Julie Vander Meulen:Yes, so www. ownyourlife. academy/ newsletter.
Garry Schleifer:Got it. Thank you very much, and thank you again for writing and we look forward to having you be a repeat guest on the podcast. Thank you so much for just for being here and for your wisdom and for challenging and being the contrarian. Keep going.
Julie Vander Meulen:Thank you, Garry, thank you so much.
Garry Schleifer:That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe to your favorite podcast app, probably the one that got you here. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine and you're watching this video, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right-hand corner or by going to choice-online. com and clicking the Sign Up Now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thanks, Julie.