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Episode 132: Unlocking Coaching Transformation: Navigating Identity and Power Dynamics with guest, Susana Rinderle

• Garry Schleifer

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Transform your coaching practice with insights from Susana Rinderle, a transformational life and leadership coach, as she shares her unique perspective on coaching across color lines. Discover the depth of understanding gained from her experiences as a racially ambiguous, multicultural white person and her pivotal conversation with a colleague that reshaped her approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). Susana opens up about the vital competencies needed to coach leaders from diverse racial backgrounds, emphasizing the importance of recognizing one’s identity and positionality in creating impactful coaching relationships.

Explore the intricate relationships between identity and coaching as Susana shares her journey of growing up in multicultural Los Angeles. We dive into the concept of being "transcultural" and how personal and professional experiences can shape identities beyond DNA or birth. Learn about the strategies Susana employs to bridge racial conversations with clients, fostering environments where open dialogue can flourish. Her approach, which includes gathering information on clients' racial, spiritual, and cultural identities, creates a foundation of understanding that enhances the coaching relationship and leads to meaningful outcomes.

Unpack the complexities of power dynamics within coaching relationships, particularly for white coaches engaging with marginalized communities. Susana discusses her path to understanding privilege, inspired by thinkers like Robin D'Angelo, and stresses the importance of creating safe spaces for client feedback. With recommended readings like "Caste" by Isabel Wilkerson and "My Grandmother's Hands" by Resmaa Menakem, this episode invites reflection on the necessity of trauma-informed coaching. Susanna's insights encourage coaches to acknowledge their identities and embrace the awkwardness of these critical conversations, ultimately leading to genuine and transformative client interactions.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Susana here.

 Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com

Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles, have a chat with this brilliant author of ours and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives, because that's what most of us want to do, if not all. Remember too, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching, so let's dive in.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's episode, I'm speaking with transformational life and leadership coach Susana Rinderle, who is the author of an article in our latest issue What's Hot and What's Not ~ What is Influencing Coaching? Her article is entitled Towards Freedom and Healing ~ Six Keys to Coaching Across Color Lines. A bit about Susana she has an MA, she's a PCC, a writer, a poet and, as I mentioned, a transformational life and leadership coach. She's an ICF mentor coach and a trauma-informed somatic practitioner. Her first career was in diversity, equity, inclusion, for those of us who know DEI, and leadership development.

Garry Schleifer:

She spent 30 years garnering results for employees and clients across the US and abroad in multiple sectors and industries, as an internal subject matter expert, organizational leader and external consultant. She's a former Principal Consultant for Korn Ferry and a TEDx speaker. Her articles have appeared in commercial publications, academic journals and choice, the magazine of professional coaching, and thanks for joining me again and for writing again. You mentioned your previous article about trauma informed coaching and coaches, and I want to thank you very much for writing for us again, Susana, and being here on our podcast.

Susana Rinderle:

Well, it's my pleasure, Garry. I appreciate what choice brings to the coaching world, and it's always good to talk to you.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, here we are and you've written another article and for those that have read the article, it's pretty obvious why this author wrote this article. But what charged you to jump in and do it at this time?

Susana Rinderle:

Oh my, what a great question. I don't know that there was any sort of galvanizing moment or big catalyst, just that, right now we're at the end of 2024.

Susana Rinderle:

Coaching across color lines is a big part of my practice, and perhaps you know what kind of bubbled it back up to the top was the conversation I had with my friend/ colleague, Sasha, that I mentioned in the article where she consulted with me for coaching supervision about how to coach this one black female leader who was being promoted into a senior position. So I think in talking to her, you know, as you mentioned in that very kind bio, this is something that has been my lived experience for half a century, but it's also been my professional and academic focus for my entire adulthood. So I think the conversation with Sasha sort of crystallized in a concrete way what some of the things that, for me, are just part of my daily practice are maybe new and also useful for folks that don't bring that, you know, set of experiences to their coaching.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, in your article you identify yourself as a racially ambiguous, multicultural white person who has spent most of her life around BIPOC more of her life around BIPOC than white people.

Garry Schleifer:

So how would you describe how you identify yourself, because it's not obvious to me.

Susana Rinderle:

Yeah, I love that. Thank you for that question, Garry, and I think that's a really important question when it comes to this topic, because knowing someone's identity and their positionality when it comes to talking about race, racism, coaching across color lines and not being squeamish about asking the question are two pieces of competence that are related to what I share in the piece, and you know I laugh because the way I've answered that question has evolved over time and I have sort of the professional answer and the cheeky answer, depending on how people ask that question.

Susana Rinderle:

Yeah, well, because people will also ask the question in a very indirect way. They won't really ask how do you identify racially? They'll say things like where are you from?

Susana Rinderle:

And I'll say Los Angeles, and then sometimes they'll make conclusions from that. Or if we're in Los Angeles, they'll say where are you from? I'll say I was born and raised in Pasadena, before it became really fancy and bougie. And sometimes they'll ask well, where are your parents from? And I'll say well, my dad's from New Orleans and my mom grew up in San Fernando, Pacoima. And that's where they'll stop, because then they'll conclude okay, she's got a white dad and a Mexican mom because of the neighborhoods.

Susana Rinderle:

So I don't give people too much, you know, I don't give people too much, too soon to narrow their thinking. So there's been cheeky ways I've answered, but then professional ways I'll answer. I have identified as multiracial in the past because there have been a lot of things in my family's appearance, as well as the family stories, that led us to believe that we have Native American and or recent Latino heritage. The DNA tests have said that's actually not correct. We're 100 percent European.

Susana Rinderle:

But part of my lived experience, as I say in the piece and as you just kind of alluded to or named, is that because I have dark hair, dark eyes, three of my family members were dark skinned, grew up mostly around BIPOC. That's who I went to school with, who my friends were, who my boyfriends were. I've been a fluent Spanish speaker since I was an adolescent and I spent key developmental, professional and educational years in Mexico. So that's a lot of my background. I was mentored by a lot of very strong black women, of my principals at my schools, my vice principals, my coaches, my teachers. A lot of them are black women.

Susana Rinderle:

So I've grown up around a lot of African Americans, a lot of Latinos and then also, as an Angeleno growing up in the seventies, a lot of refugees from Southeast Asia. So a lot of Cambodians, Vietnamese and also Filipinos. So, and I went to school in Mexico. I did my Master's thesis research in Mexico, I did my Master's in New Mexico. So this has been part of my lived academic and professional experience and I have passed for Latino many times in my life. So that's a long answer.

Susana Rinderle:

Another kind of answer that I sometimes give and actually wrote a paper on in grad school was a transcultural.

Garry Schleifer:

A transcultural.

Susana Rinderle:

Transcultural so someone whose lived experience and appearance might not match similar to transgender people their DNA or their birth. So there's a lot of answers to it, but another cheeky answer I'll give is it's complicated.

Garry Schleifer:

Check my Facebook page. It's complicated.

Susana Rinderle:

Yeah, exactly. Racial status. Complicated, yeah.

Garry Schleifer:

You refer to a lot of tips and things like this, but what's coming up for me right now is so when's the right time to ask that sort of question, like when is it right, when is it necessary, when is it helpful for a coach to ask? If I were having a conversation with you I don't know that I would have a conversation with you like we're having now. If I had a conversation with a woman that was obviously black, I might endeavor into that conversation about I identify as a cisgender white male a privilege. How would you identify and how can we coach together that supports you? I've stacked too many questions in there.

Garry Schleifer:

So, first of all yeah when's it right, when's it necessary?

Susana Rinderle:

You're talking about in the coach-client relationship it sounds like. Yeah, also a great question, Garry, because a lot of again, when we talk about coaching across color lines, what we are really talking about here is white people coaching BIPOC. So this is a very important because that's the majority of what there's so few.

Susana Rinderle:

BIPOC coaches, unfortunately, and of course they coach both people of color as well as white folks, but most of what the piece is for and what we're talking about is white coaches coaching BIPOC. So I love your question because you're asking about right and necessary and I don't know that there is one answer to questions of rightness and necessary. What I think can be useful are a couple things. One is, when I am about to work with a new client, as I think most coaches, there's some form of chemistry call or get to know you. If the client, surfaces those issues, I may dive into that right then and there.

Susana Rinderle:

If the client, and this actually happened to me with one of the clients that I name in the article that in the chemistry call the client asked point blank what my experience and comfort level is in coaching black people, because that person is a black male. And the funny thing, Garry, is that my answer to that question actually encouraged him to hire me over all of the other BIPOC coaches that he had interviewed. Because one of the things I said in answering that question is and he asked me some other follow-up questions it wasn't just that, but apparently he told, because I asked and he told me that the feedback he was getting from and this is a he was a C-suite level leader that the coaches he was interviewing were kind of saying well, you just kind of got to do what you got to do to get along and you got to assimilate. And I was like I'm here to help you be the best version of you possible. And I'm not going to shy away from questions like is there racism or discrimination happening here?

Susana Rinderle:

I don't think I'm doing the conversation justice, but you know and I'm not trying to say, look at me, look at me. I'm trying to say, this is an example of having a frank conversation and having the orientation that I do to coaching across color lines made a difference, not only in terms of working with that client but the results he ended up getting. Another thing that I do that can be very helpful for other coaches is that when I'm working with my own clients as opposed to through a third party, even after the chemistry call, I have a very detailed discovery form which is online.

Susana Rinderle:

Almost all of the questions are voluntary. I may have talked about this in our previous interview around trauma-informed coaching, but I ask questions about how do you identify racially? What was it like growing up? How do you identify spiritually? If any, what other languages besides English do you speak? What's your cultural background? So I ask all of that up front as well. I'd say the third thing, Garry, when it comes to you know, maybe not, maybe right, maybe necessary, but certainly useful would be when things start to, there's a way that you it's like.

Susana Rinderle:

It's like playing double Dutch jump rope. You kind of watch the rope since like, oh, there's an entry, there's an entrance right there. I can sense and notice and I think coaches that listen deeply and also have racial and power fluency can notice these moments where it's like they want to say a thing or they're starting to touch around the edges of I don't think I'm being treated fairly at work, or I feel like I'm an imposter, or I don't know if I can trust this person or if I'm in the right place, and I might, you know, kind of again touch gently around the edges of how do you identify racially? And again, it's a very fluid, casual question. It's not like, oh, oh, I don't know if I want and just like how do you identify racially? Or do you identify as African-American? Or is there another, because I can see them right, you like right, identifies African-American.

Susana Rinderle:

How do you identify? Oh, I identify such and such. Well, how many other people like you are in your organization? Or where are you in terms of the demographics of your team, or whatever? Or I said this years ago to another colleague who happened to be a black woman as well as queer, I would say well, how much is your identity as a black queer woman part of what's showing up in the way that you're making decisions in this situation or the way that you feel like you're being treated? Oh my gosh, like I never even thought of that. So there are ways that I can kind of ask indirectly as relates to whatever's showing up in the coaching or the chemistry call. Then again, the intake questionnaire can help and just flat out asking someone without it being a thing.

Susana Rinderle:

When I do this in my personal life, sometimes I'll guess. I'll go are you Laotian or Cambodian? And they'll say, oh, I'm a Cambodian. And they'll be impressed that I even know to guess which two, and then we'll have a conversation. But it's not weird if you approach it with this kind of human lightness in my experience

Garry Schleifer:

That's interesting because I'm sitting here thinking when I see my clients, they're obviously a person of color. And you're suggesting? We still ask the question, how do you identify?

Susana Rinderle:

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer:

Which it kind of takes me back.

Garry Schleifer:

I'm kind of like, isn't it obvious? But and to your point, I wouldn't think of asking you because I would just assume you're a white woman.

Susana Rinderle:

Right. Right but even asking that question shows a certain level of racial, cultural and power fluency because people are also biracial or multiracial. People are also intersectional. So I may present as a black person but I am actually Caribbean or I am from the continent of Africa. I am from Sudan or I am from Kenya and that is important to my identity. I wasn't born in the United States. Or I am Cambodian and not Vietnamese. That can matter to people and if they say well isn' t that obvious. You could say again, if you just kind of relax into it and go well, I was guessing Southeast Asian of some kind, but is there some other way that you identify that feels important? And they might say no, and then we move on.

Susana Rinderle:

So if they get awkward about it. We made it in kind, but I think it's the awkwardness about even asking or having the conversation that starts to get coaches.

Garry Schleifer:

Right, exactly, and I've learned over the years that I am open to making mistakes and open to feedback on the mistakes that I make, and so that gives me the courage to ask the question. You know and interesting, you should say that about Africa and one of my best friends is from Cote d'Ivoire and you can't tell because he doesn't have an accent. If anything, he lived in the States for a while. If anything, he has a bit of a Philly accent. So there you've got this black man from Cote d'Ivoire via the US and I don't think I would have asked the question if he was a client. And I'm learning to ask the question because, to your point in the coaching, how does this impact your decisions as a leader? I ask about your identity because I want to know about your lived experience so that I can help coach you on the challenges that we're talking about, that kind of thing.

Susana Rinderle:

Well, and I can hear maybe some of our listeners or watchers having some dialogue inside as they're listening to this, saying things like well, that doesn't matter, or it shouldn't matter, and that's not correct.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah.

Susana Rinderle:

It does matter. It matters to those clients, and whether or not it should is really a question about racism and power. If racism didn't exist, I don't think we would feel as squeamish as talking about this, because we think that what we're doing is we are surfacing a marginalized identity that is power under which, in a way, we are. But even in doing that, there's empowerment and there's connection, there's rapport that's happening. There's let's get through the BS and let's really get to the nitty-gritty of what's going on now.

Susana Rinderle:

It is also true and I touch on this in the piece that many bipac people don't want to talk about this. They don't feel that they're being discriminated against or they don't experience racism, and so we meet the client where they're at, we ask the question, we notice what they're to your point and I say this in the piece as well getting good at rupture and repair is part of all healthy relationships, and that includes coaching. Okay, I can see that that's not something that is alive for them right now. Moving that's not something that is alive for them right now. Moving on, it may shift at some point, but you know we don't what bash people of color over the head with their race. But the reality. The reality is that we perceive and treat people based on the way that they show up physically, and ignoring that reality is part of what gets in the way.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, and you said it quite well, there are six steps in your article and one of them that worked for us to do is believe the client and validate their reality, so being with them, and that's what we're trained to be as coaches. But, like you suggested, white coaches like myself get a little like like, how do you start? What do you say, what's necessary, what's needed, what's right, and and it's not always right One of the incidences that I have. You're fortunate you have an intake form where you clearly ask right, you know how do you identify racially and, I'm sure, a few other questions. How will that inform our coaching? You know, how would you like me to work with you? With that, maybe, I am on a platform. I'll show up and there'll be a person and they're ready to go because they've selected me.

Garry Schleifer:

So I asked them why did you select me? And then I'll state the obvious. I'm like well, you know I'm a white man of privilege and you're a black woman. I don't ever want you to feel like you can't talk about what the white guys do, because I know what they're like and what they do. So I don't want that ever to be in the way. So, just kind of like throw that out there as a piece for them. What do you think of that?

Susana Rinderle:

I think that's great. Well then, my question back to you is how does that land on your clients when you do that?

Garry Schleifer:

She was blown away. She said now I know why I picked you.

Susana Rinderle:

Yes.

Susana Rinderle:

Right so it shows trust, it shows self-knowledge, it shows fluency, because, to what you were saying just a moment ago, gary, it's like anything else that we are not familiar with and that we're learning, like learning the language.

Susana Rinderle:

My third language is French and I'm right now working really hard at getting better at it, and it's humbling as an adult and as a professional to be learning something and doing something we don't feel completely competent and intelligent in. And this is the same If you haven't had the experience as a white coach, of asking people whether, in your personal life, you know, I've been doing this since I was a child, right, so I have a lot more years of practice and I'm thinking about it and sitting with it. Of course you're going to feel awkward, but the awkwardness is not going to go away if you don't practice it right. So I love that you did that and what I also find very useful and maybe in the same conversation, maybe in other conversations, it can also be useful for white it to lessen who I am, or other than to perhaps show to your point about that.

Garry Schleifer:

I, you know I'm not how I may look, although some people will argue I look gay. But whatever, those are just my so-called friends. Uh, right, but no, I mean, I do mention it and you know what. I'm reflecting back on what you said today. There's a time and a place where it's right, and so they'll. They'll be time. So sometimes I never say it, that's, I'm not. I'm a man who happens to be gay. I'm not a gay man, so it's not important, it it's all. But I'm also, you know, six foot two. I'm also German background. I've also, you know, got this, this, this. Well, I don't bring all my cards to the table. I'll bring them when, as and when they're needed and can, can and to your point, to create trust, confidence in the conversation that we're building with our clients.

Susana Rinderle:

Yes, and I would say that in doing that, gary, there's a bit there of key number one that I mentioned, which is doing our personal work, knowing who we are, knowing what those identities are, knowing what they mean in terms of our experience and what we receive and don't receive in the world. As a result, gaining fluency in the language is part of that process, because there are also identities that we have that you know, we may not consciously surface, but they're always there, they're always a part of our lens. We may not consciously surface, but they're always there, they're always a part of our lens, our filter, how others perceive and treat us, et cetera. So, at the right and this is also part of the competency of coaching presence we're fully aware and we're constantly in our own self-inquiry about who we are, how we're showing up, what parts of ourselves are surfacing at different points and trusting our instincts. This is a part of that um, and so you know, when it feels appropriate I've it's not it still surprises me, it still feels risky.

Susana Rinderle:

And it still surprises me when I reveal to clients or disclose in my trauma-informed coaching workshops that I I'm a trauma survivor, I'm a class migrant and I'm neurodivergent. You know, those are some of my non-dominant and marginalized identities, and so what I think that does for BIPOC clients, when I identify those marginalized identities and also being a cishet female and for you, being LGBTQ, that also gives them an insight into, oh okay, so this person also understands what it's like to be marginalized or what it's like to be oppressed in different ways. That may not even be a conscious thought, but it also shows the ways that humans are almost everyone's intersectional, in the sense that we have both privileged and marginalized identities. So that creates again more depth of human relating and, I think, more just, more realness.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, more realness, more authenticity. And it's interesting because when you said that, I'm like and we're not trying to say that your lived experience is on the same level as mine, just that we share that everybody has differences that everybody has differences, but that those differences are not treated the same right, yeah yeah, right.

Susana Rinderle:

So being a BIPOC female, those are two non-dominant identities. Being a BIPOC female who's a class migrant and also queer, that's for marginalized identities as opposed to someone who is a white, white cishet male who has an ivy league degree and happens to be gay. That that you know. It's not the same.

Garry Schleifer:

That's what I mean and we're and that's not what we're saying here is we're saying it's about? It's about comfort for both sides, like a little bit of ease, a little bit of joy. Uh, a friend of mine said grace and space. Yes, and and I think to another point, and maybe not necessarily in this particular part of the conversation, but that we're listening and you make a key point about that in your article is listening and acknowledging people's lived experiences Right and how important that is.

Garry Schleifer:

I've learned more by the stories that I've heard about what has happened to people, because I just don't know, I don't have that lived experience I I was talking earlier about my friend from Cote d'Ivoire and I'm I'm still not as aware as I think I could be when I'm walking with him around Toronto, which is extremely multicultural, but there's still prejudices, black versus white, and you know we'll, we're friends, so we'll hold hands and I. It's interesting for him because for him he's, he's aware, he's aware he's had the lived experiences of being a black person in a what is, or a predominantly white ruled world. And and I'm I have to remind myself not to be so oblivious as I I tend to be and to and to bring myself to understanding that this person here has a different. We're walking the same path, we're looking at the same things, but we're seeing them differently, we're feeling them differently and I think that's one of the biggest things that I get out of my work, doing my personal work.

Susana Rinderle:

Yes, and may I add something to that that hearing here? Again, I think white people can kind of hear about difference and it becomes a false equivalence in their mind. And I'm not saying you're doing this, I'm just thinking about what other people might be hearing here. You know, BIPOC people, women, queer people have to be aware. We have to be aware because our lives and our livelihoods are at stake if we don't pay attention to those things because we have been for centuries and still are in danger, physical danger, financial danger, all the types of danger. So I also encourage white coaches to let go a little bit if there's any guilt or shame that they have around the not noticing because that's what racism and white supremacy does.

Susana Rinderle:

We don't have to notice because our lives and livelihoods are not at stake. And yet, inviting ourselves back into the noticing can be a great place to connect with the client because it's not the same and it's never going to be. But we don't have to beat up on ourselves about that. Again, part of my lens here is nervous system and trauma. There's only so much that our systems can take at any one time. But yes, I mean, there's nothing like being close with a person of color and really paying attention to open up a whole new, you know, lens into reality. And the power that goes along with that. It's not about hurt feelings, it's about lives and livelihoods being at stake.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, wow, well said yeah, wow, this is a lot.

Garry Schleifer:

And you know I can't help but remember recently. Okay, so here's a bit of the backstory. I came to the realization that I was a cis white man of privilege at the ACTO, the Association of Coach Training Organization, in Victoria in 2019, when Robin D'Angelo was on the stage speaking. Fast forward, I was traveling down to a conference and I was re-listening to the audio from her book White Fragility, and I am still learning so much when I listen to that conversation and it just is like wow, wow. You know, you learn and some stuff you forget, and so you need to relearn and be reminded and, like you said, not to be afraid. I always say I'm open to feedback. If I say something that is, you know, inappropriate or a typical thing for a white guy to say, please let me know.

Garry Schleifer:

I'm always on a path of learning and I don't ever want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or unsafe.

Susana Rinderle:

Yeah, that's beautiful good intention and also, you know, when one has more ticks in the power identities box than one's client, it tends to be more useful and more safe for the client that we take on more of that burden. So expecting them to always educate or call us out is well intended and can be very useful. And, I think, taking on more of the responsibility ourselves to ask for feedback, like what worked well about today's session, what didn't work well, have anonymous ways for them to give feedback that also create more safety. You know, it takes a lot of nervous system energy for a person of color, anyone with a marginalized identity, to give someone with more dominant identities feedback, and that's a part of what we have to do every, every single day.

Garry Schleifer:

Wow, I haven't thought of that.

Susana Rinderle:

So again, you know it's not that it. I applaud you doing that and again, as you or any of our listeners, including myself, continue on our journey, continue to get curious and creative about additional ways that we can individually, in that micro ecosystem of the coaching relationship, even out that power imbalance just a little. And that's why asking the question ourselves, as a white or white presenting coach, how do you identify? The fact that we ask it first makes a difference. Because here we are, in our whiteness and in that power position asking, instead of making it be all the emotional labor and the burden falling on that marginalized person to do all the work.

Garry Schleifer:

Wow, thank you. Great advice, great guidance, as always. As always, oh my gosh, we could obviously we've talked about this forever, but you know the time has come to say what would you like our audience to do as a result of the article and this conversation?

Susana Rinderle:

Wow, Garry, time flies when you're having fun.

Garry Schleifer:

I know right.

Susana Rinderle:

I enjoy talking to you.

Susana Rinderle:

Yeah, well, actually that was a great segue into something that I thought of. So I suppose I would invite listeners to consider, you know, reading the article if they haven't, leaning into one of those keys. You know, taking on all six all at once might be too big of a feast to take on, like you know. Sit with one of the keys for a week or two, try it on for size. You know, the definition of courage is not the absence of fear, but acting in spite of it. You're going to be afraid to try these things. Try them anyway, start to build up that muscle.

Susana Rinderle:

I recommend two books, one of which really speaks to a lot of what you and I have talked about today Garry. Caste by Isabel Wilkerson and my Grandmother's Hands by Resmaa Menakem. Those are both African-American people of color, excellent books. There of course are many, but those are two I really recommend for white coaches. Then kind of the segue is, if you have feedback, you know, offer your feedback about the article.

Susana Rinderle:

You know, what do you, especially if you are a BIPOC coach, what do you disagree with? What do you want to push back on? What do you want to add some color or flavor to? White coaches, how have you and you leaned into any of these keys and what have you found? What's been your lived experience? And if folks would like to get some training in trauma-informed coaching, which is one of the recommendation, one of the keys. Being trauma-informed is essential for working BIPOC. I offer that. I'm also a mentor, coach and a supervisor. I'd be happy to work with anyone and they can follow me on social media at Susana Rinderle or check out my website at wordswisdomwellness. com.

Garry Schleifer:

Wordswisdomwellness. com.

Susana Rinderle:

Or traumainformedcoachingusa. com.

Garry Schleifer:

Traumainformedcoachingusa. com. Got it and we'll put that down below, as they say on the audios, so you can find it there. Oh my gosh, thank you so much, Susana, for joining us for another episode of Beyond the Page. I truly appreciate your wisdom, your authenticity, your ease in having these conversations, difficult conversations in a way sometimes. Difficult for some of us to get started or keep going. So thank you.

Susana Rinderle:

Absolutely, you're welcome, and thank you so much for inviting me. It was a pleasure.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, hey, you started it. You wrote for us.

Susana Rinderle:

I did, I started it.

Garry Schleifer:

You have to write for us again.

Susana Rinderle:

It would be my pleasure, Garry. Thank you so much for doing what you do and what you contribute to the field.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, thank you.

Garry Schleifer:

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, probably the one that got you here. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine and you're watching, you can sign up for free for a free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right-hand corner or by going to choice-online. com and clicking the Sign Up Now button. Thanks again, Susana.

Susana Rinderle:

My pleasure. Until next time, folks.

Garry Schleifer:

I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery and, yes, until the next time.