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Episode 136: Neuroscience for Coaches: Thriving in Uncertain Times with guest, Julia Bunyatov
Uncertainty has become our new normal. Through global pandemics, geopolitical conflicts, technological revolutions, and personal challenges, the question isn't whether change will occur but how we'll navigate it. Leadership coach Julia Bunyatov brings three decades of corporate leadership experience and cutting-edge neuroscience research to show us why simply surviving isn't enough—and how we can genuinely thrive amid uncertainty.
What if everything we thought we knew about peak performance was wrong? Contrary to the glorified hustle culture, Julia reveals that our brains perform optimally not when stressed but when in a "relaxed physiological state." This counterintuitive discovery transforms how we approach leadership challenges. Rather than pushing through with adrenaline and multitasking, she demonstrates how accessing this parasympathetic state provides the neural energy needed for innovation, complex problem-solving, and sustained effectiveness.
The conversation unveils the science of neuroplasticity—our brain's remarkable ability to reorganize itself based on experience and awareness. Julia introduces the revolutionary concept of "self-directed neuroplasticity," giving listeners practical approaches to reshape their neural pathways intentionally. From wellness practices like quality sleep (where our most complex problem-solving actually happens) to mindfulness (which she reframes as "silencing the mind") to cultivating genuine optimism, she provides actionable strategies that literally change our brains.
Perhaps most compelling is Julia's insight about language and its neurological impact. "The brain is always listening," she explains, highlighting how deliberate word choice can shift our entire neurophysiology. When we ask, "What would it take for you to enjoy what you're doing?" instead of focusing on problems, we activate different neural networks and open possibilities previously invisible. Connect with Julia on LinkedIn or at Sirmio Coaching to learn more about applying neuroscience to leadership excellence.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here.
Learn more about Julia Bunyatov here.
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Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles, have a chat with this brilliant author that wrote it and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. Join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives. This is your go-to resource for all things coaching. So let's dive in.
Garry Schleifer:In today's episode, I'm speaking with leadership coach Julia Bunyatov, who is the author of an article in our latest issue What's Hot and What's ~ What is Influencing Coaching? The article is entitled Thriving in Uncertainty ~ Neuroscience and Application for Coaches and Leaders. A couple of very hot topics. Julia has her BS and is a PCC. She's a leadership coach and trusted advisor to C-suite executives and teams, with 30 years of corporate leadership and board experience in high pressure environments. She specializes in integrating behavioral neuroscience and the latest research on emotions to support clients in achieving goals by optimizing performance and resilience. Don't we need that? Her expertise in the brain-body connection enables her to challenge and guide clients to connect with innate internal capacities, resolve decision blocks and unlock their highest levels of potential to gain greater success and sustainable long-term effectiveness. Beautiful. Julia, thank you so much for joining me today. What a great pedigree. Can't wait to hear more about it and thank you for joining us.
Julia Bunyatov:Thank you for having me, Garry.
Garry Schleifer:No problem.
Garry Schleifer:So what had you wake up one day and say I have to write this article and submit it to choice?
Julia Bunyatov:Great, great question. I think if you and I were speaking, probably six years ago, five to six years ago, I would have told you that change is the main constant right and you probably agreed. But here we are. We're in 2025. Exactly a month from today, we're going to celebrate. It's going to mark the time when we were told to go home and redefine our lives. Three years from three years ago, right 12 days from today, the war in Ukraine started and we are living through unprecedented time with technological advancement and artificial intelligence. I don't think we fully understand what this means for us, how it will reshape our lives, although I noticed some of us are taking it as an opportunity. So congrats.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you, I am. Enough about me. It's all about you.
Julia Bunyatov:It's all about thriving and yeah, so so much, and I'm not even mentioning everything else that's happening. So, while, while we will agree that change remains the main constant, we probably could say with certainty that uncertainty has become our norm.
Garry Schleifer:Oh true, well said, well said. And you know what? I won't dismiss the comment we were talking earlier about our respective mothers and the challenges that us children have in their care and well-being. And I was mentioning that I don't believe I have anybody. I don't have kids, so I won't have anybody taking care of me, but I have a plan to thrive beyond 105. And I'm saying that and revealing that because it supports what you wrote in your article, where you emphasize the concept of choosing to thrive during times of uncertainty. You want to explain this for our listeners and why it's so pivotal in leadership and coaching.
Julia Bunyatov:Yeah, absolutely. I think the way we navigate this change and uncertainty is really the focus of any conversation today in coaching space. You and I have spoken over the past several months as well, dealing with both of our mother's situations, and for me, the next question would be what do we know about the brain today that could teach us how we could optimize our performance at the best level, right for a very long time? I will probably like to stress three points. The first one being, for a very long time, we've been working with this common belief that the brains main purpose in life is to keep us alive, to survive. Well, this is absolutely true. We also know that we are able to learn, grow and evolve, and the life around us is evidenced of this right. Hence the brain not only there just to keep us alive, to survive, but also to evolve and thrive.
Julia Bunyatov:This entire concept of neuroplasticity right, the brain's ability to change as a function of experience. And now we also know awareness as well, which is so essential in coaching, the first stage of coaching, where we help the client establish awareness and reshape their experience, reshaping the brain, how it's able to change, and change not only physically, but also behaviors that follow right. So the concept of neuroplasticity and also some concepts about the brain that I explore in the article, that it's not a reactive organ. It's a predictive organ. It's one of the most complex and sophisticated organs that we have. It proves the idea that our brains are not only here to keep us alive, to survive, but to thrive as well.
Garry Schleifer:I do think you say that that kind of confuses me and you tell me more it's not reactive, and yet we talk about fight, flight and fear right, and so why is that not reactive?
Julia Bunyatov:Yeah, and that could be the first response we have. The brain is connected to the body with the nervous system so we have two states. The stress response and the peace response.
Julia Bunyatov:So we could say that in the parameters become uncertain, we shift into that stress response or anxious response. However, what's also available to us is that peace response, relaxed physiological state. What I also unfold in the article, which was for me as someone who had achieved a lot in the corporate arena I come from financial services, where I think stress was one of the denominators of success was a revelation when I got certified in neuroscience that it's actually when we are in the relaxed physiological state or in the state of silent alertness, that when our brain is ready to respond to threats and opportunities. And that relaxed physiological state is synonymous with the parasympathetic state.
Julia Bunyatov:So yeah, you're absolutely right. It has a reactive component because we look at the environment in terms of threats and evidence. However, a lot of those threats are not physical threats so much. How do we regulate our brain- body system and shift into this parasympathetic or relaxed physiological state where we could choose something that is more generative for us? But this idea that the brain is not only there to keep us alive, to survive, but to thrive as well, for me was if I know that, why wouldn't I choose thriving?
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, yeah
Julia Bunyatov:But some of us do it very easily and organically like you did.
Julia Bunyatov:You already know you're going to thrive and you're living in the...
Garry Schleifer:Oh, okay, hold on, I don't think it was that easy. I mean, yes, I do publish choice, so I had choice in the matter. But you know, it took some reflection. Reflection on my genetics. So my mom is 92, going on 93. My great grandfather was almost 100. So part of it was the logistics, the observation and reflection that it was in there. And then I hear people complaining about oh, you know, I don't want to live to be 100 years old and I'm like but if you have with the advances in science and health and that sort of thing, and you put your mind to it and maybe this is where you're talking to right, you put your mind to it, I plan on thriving beyond 105. For me that means still coaching, still driving, I think. I don't know, I don't know anybody that was 105 that has the mental state that I have around thriving.
Julia Bunyatov:Yeah, yeah, and what you're highlighting is this compelling pool of an energy right? This definition of thriving.
Julia Bunyatov:So I think for those of us who don't have that pool, it's easy to say why would I? And that's also was part of the research. And that's where I think Richard Payats is that we know very well. His research was pivotal right when he wrote about positive emotional attractors and what we do in coaching. That we're focusing on the future self, the vision and that's why this choosing to thrive creates that vision of that I could thrive. The question becomes what does it mean to thrive? What is the role of thriving entails? And when conditions are severely uncertain, how do we actually manage our energy and create that process and rearrange what we know and create new conditions, new capacities for our brain, body system, to evolve and to enjoy the process in the environment, right? So that is, I think that is what, in a way, that where there is coaches to do. I have a lot of executive coaching clients that come to me with a cognitively wired transactional context and I always bring that concept what would it take you for you to enjoy being at work?
Julia Bunyatov:What does it mean for you to thrive at work, and it shifts the conversation immediately because language is so essential. The brain is always listening. So if we're talking about transactional things, it's going to be transactional. But if we elevate the conversation to that capacity, we know that the brain is able to thrive. And if the client is in a good situation with you, that you have a trust in the system, they're able to see that, oh yeah, there could be an opportunity for me to define what thriving is right. So the first one is recognizing the brain is there for us, not to just to stay alive. Hence I don't wanna. Why would I live till 105, right? Why would I be in that survival mode? Um, but to thrive, oh, I want to thrive, I'm gonna thrive at 105 and the second one is why it's your magazine who published my work.
Julia Bunyatov:You need to choose thriving right. Like the father of, I call him the father, not the grandfather, the father of neuroplasticity, Michael Merzenach. In 1970s, he wanted to prove that the concept of neuroplasticity was identified in the early 1900s. Italian researchers said the brain is plastic. So Michael Merzenich said I'm going to, like any science discovery, he said I'm going to prove that the brain is actually fixed. And as a result of his work he proved the opposite right, that the brain is able to change. But he said it beautifully and I don't want to quote him directly, but he said something that we have a choice to choose and make our life more interesting any moment in life. How beautiful is that right.
Garry Schleifer:I know right.
Garry Schleifer:I wish we would remember that every day when we wake up and every night before we go to bed.
Julia Bunyatov:So choice is essential. Choice is absolutely essential. I also studied Jeffrey Schwartz because he's done a lot of research in mindfulness space. He's a psychiatrist and also a neuroscientist and he developed this term I don't know if you know about it. Self-directed neuroplasticity. So just think about it Self-directed neuroplasticity that if we have enough awareness, we know what we truly value in life. We know what's important to us. We could create compelling vision, and then we could choose the right action and reshape our brains, hence reshape our lives.
Garry Schleifer:Well that one, I didn't put two and two together to know that I can have some control or influence over my neuroplasticity. Thank you for reminding us of that.
Julia Bunyatov:Yeah, and I think the last one is if we do that and we know in the current environment, the change is so relentless, how do we navigate this? Right, like because what we need and I practice that and I preach that what we need is enough energy. So energy, I always talk about energy. Do we have enough energy in our brain, body system to be in a goal-directed state when we're innovating. What is thriving? Thriving is seeing this works, that that stays, this no longer works. I need to parse that. And then the third stage, and in between the second and third stage, third stage, you create new possibilities and you create new capacities and, within that space, what we have, we have these epiphanies and aha moments. For all of that, we need enough energy in the system. So in a reactive state, the energy is depleted because we're always running away from the energy. It doesn't exist.
Julia Bunyatov:So which states give us enough energy to be in that goal-directed state and achieve what we want to achieve? Define what we want to achieve. What does thriving look for us when things are completely uncertain? And then also achieve that. And then, as I mentioned before, this relaxed physiological state I was like, oh my God, I don't need to be stressed, I don't need to multitask. For a very long time I thought, if I multitask, I get a lot of stuff done. I actually need to be in the relaxed physiological state. And what conditions? What behaviors get us into relaxed physiological state? And those are, I think all of us are familiar with, the silver lining of the pandemic wellness behaviors, right? So, finally, we're talking about the importance of sleep and, by the way, sleep is essential. We know for many reasons, but the most important that I want listeners to take away, the most complex problem solving, happens during sleep. The brain is vastly unconscious and we problem solve in the unconscious, and we'll probably come back to this thought, but it's just fascinating, right? Sleep is also where not only we are building new connections between the neurons, but we actually create new neurons for our mothers right For us as we grow older, we know it's so important for our vitality and the brain health. We don't want dementia, we don't want Alzheimer's. Exercise, we now know the importance of exercise, again, the neuroplasticity, the creation of the new synaptic connections between neurons and mindfulness is essential, absolutely essential and nutrition. In the article, I unfold mindfulness a little bit and and I'm in a lot of many coaching spaces and a lot of people say no, meditation is so hard for my clients.
Julia Bunyatov:I never tell my clients. I say like, I say something different. I say that, what if you notice what you are engaged in and try to enjoy it fully and be embedded in that process? So that is the process of mindfulness. Neurozone, which I'm trained in, use a different word which I really appreciate. Not a lot of people use that phrase is silencing the mind.
Julia Bunyatov:So silencing the mind, when are we focusing our attention and observing, how are we feeling and what's showing up for us in a very non-judgmental way? How do we do that? And the longer we do that, the more it becomes a trait. And, referencing Jeffrey Schwartz again, what he said beautifully, that practice of mindfulness on noticing what's showing up internally and externally helps us make better choices. And then leadership is so essential. He also was the one who said that connects us with our intuition and the inner self of knowing. And it obviously has all these physiological, amazing physiological results and promotes neuroplasticity in the brain.
Julia Bunyatov:So I expanded on mindfulness and then I expanded on curiosity. Going back to your question about reactive state and curious state. We have two states. Reactive state, anxious, fight or flight, sympathetic state, which I usually say stress response. And our curious state. Curiosity, which is our parasympathetic state, peace state, curious state when we're able to have more energy in the system because we could flip the problem into the opportunity. We could say what is the opportunity in this situation? And I'm sure that that's probably what you thought about with artificial intelligence. What is the opportunity? When I was preparing for the podcast, I was very nervous. I've never done this before, so I said I need to follow what I preach. How do I get in a curious state? It didn't work, so I had to make it very mindful for me. So I said how can I get curious about enjoying the process?
Garry Schleifer:Wow, that's cool.
Julia Bunyatov:And it worked and then the next intention was how could I enjoy a conversation with Garry? And I do enjoy it
Garry Schleifer:And you're doing fabulous. That's what I tell people. It's just like having coffee with a friend, you know, and we're talking about what you wrote, what you love, what's close to your heart, and you know, match made in heaven.
Julia Bunyatov:Yeah, great, thank you.
Julia Bunyatov:It's a lot, I agree.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, very much so.
Julia Bunyatov:And the third one that I've expanded is optimism, and it's not so much toxic positivity but more so believing in our abilities, believing in the positive outcomes. There is research that shows that those leaders that are optimistic they're actually more able to assess the pros and cons on any situation and this is so essential and they're able to lead their teams through uncertainty. If you are scared or in a reactive state, it's not going to work, but if we're going to be in a curious and optimistic state, it's going to give you more brain, body, energy to be goal oriented and on task given the context. So those are, I think I would say, knowing that the brain is plastic and is not only here to keep us alive but also to keep us thriving, needing to thrive and recognizing that we want to be in a relaxed physiological state when we are preparing for innovation and creating something new. So, as much possible, shifting into the curious state and obviously following those wellness behaviors that we briefly spoke about.
Garry Schleifer:Wow, you know I'm thinking about my current project, which is to, I have created an AI Coach Garry, and what you speak to I'm recognizing now, those moments when I'm on fire is when I'm curious and creative and optimistic, and the days when I don't work on it is when it's kind of like an opposite day, where there isn't. But you know, one of the things that really struck me was optimism, and I had the opportunity to meet with Dr. Marty Seligman in Philly a few months ago with a group of other coaches, and he wrote a book called Learned Optimism. I was really taken aback by those two words put together because neuroplasticity again learned optimism.
Garry Schleifer:You've trained yourself to be more optimistic, watching when you're speaking negatively and speak positively instead. A lot of it goes back to your original concept or your original wording of awareness. What coaches start with is awareness. What's one of the first things you do with a leader around this concept of thriving and and neuroscience, like you've mentioned a few things. You know you don't say meditation, you say reflection, more than that. But what's one of the first things that you do to just kind of like bring them to the present.
Julia Bunyatov:I ask them what would it take for you to enjoy what you're doing? What does thriving look like for you?
Garry Schleifer:That was that question you said. I'm glad we are repeating that one because that was awesome.
Julia Bunyatov:The brain is always listening. The brain is an attention seeker, so the language that we use is so essential. So the brain is both an energy consumer and conserver. As you probably know, it's small. It's not the smallest organ, obviously, but it's two to three pounds, two percent of the body weight. However, it consumes the most of energy. So it's 20 to 25 percent of the energy.
Garry Schleifer:Wow, I did not know that.
Julia Bunyatov:That also could explain why it could be negatively biased.
Julia Bunyatov:And if we're negatively biased, the language will be negatively biased. So, and that's the beauty of coaching. We are able to reframe. But one of the easiest reframing I would say what is it intentional sprinkle is I use a language. As much as I connect with the language of the client and I leverage that language, but then I stretch their thinking, their being, by introducing new language and I observe what happens.
Garry Schleifer:Oh, that goes back to our mothers again.
Garry Schleifer:So my mom being in the hospital, she said if I get out, and right away I was like you mean when you get out. She goes, yeah, yeah. I'm like no, no, think about it. And I brought her to a pause and had her restate it with the word when, and then I watched the difference in her reaction and just you could almost physiological change in there and maybe that's what had the learned optimism that we are now experiencing with her recovery.
Julia Bunyatov:Yeah, totally. When I wrote my article and I briefly spoke about this, it was a personal situation many years ago, 13 years ago. I chose thriving in the most extreme environment and I couldn't understand why. So optimism was the last bit in my article that was added. I couldn't understand why, with everything that was going on with me, I choose. I said I'm gonna do it differently.
Julia Bunyatov:And the optimism was and I don't know, maybe it's resilience also, right, our inherent resilience and optimism that comes with it, was the answer for me. And a client of mine, they told me I'm just so optimistic. I asked her how are you thriving? I'm just so optimistic. And she said optimism. I was like, oh my god, that was my secret source. So that kind of went me. And it was during that time when everybody was toxic positivity. So that's why I didn't truly connect. But it was so important, so essential to know that you could do it differently, right. So that was the aha. You could do it differently requires a certain level of optimism.
Garry Schleifer:Well, and then I like to say you always have the power of choice.
Julia Bunyatov:Absolutely.
Garry Schleifer:Usually with a drum roll, you know. That kind of thing. Oh my goodness, Julia, we could talk all day about this. Unfortunately, our time is limited. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation?
Julia Bunyatov:Read the article, see whether it aligns with you and learn about the brain science and definitely always choose thriving.
Garry Schleifer:There we go. You've got the thrive. I got the choice. Choose thriving. Garry and Julia coming right at you. That's amazing. Thank you so much. Julia, what's the best way for people to reach you if they have any additional questions?
Julia Bunyatov:Yes, thank you, Garry. I'm on LinkedIn and I have a website to my coaching, so you could find me there.
Garry Schleifer:And what's the name of your website?
Julia Bunyatov:It's Sirmio Coaching.
Garry Schleifer:You want to spell that please?
Julia Bunyatov:s-i-r-m-i-o coaching, s-i-r-m-i-o coaching. It is a monastery in Italy.
Garry Schleifer:Oh well, there we go, the world traveler. Well, again, thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. It was brilliant. It's so great to hear someone that has the like-mindedness but the background to tell me why I think and act the way I do and that I'm for me, I'm on the right path. So thank you.
Julia Bunyatov:Totally. Thank you, Garry.
Garry Schleifer:That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here in the first place. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top corner. I got it right these mirrored screens. For those who are listening, it's also video. Or if you're not watching, you can go to choice-online. com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thanks again, Julia.
Julia Bunyatov:Thank you.