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Episode 147: Culturally Responsive Coaching: Mo Fong's Approach Beyond One-Size-Fits-All

• Garry Schleifer

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What happens when we bring our cultural heritage into our coaching practice? Mo Fong, founder of the Asian Women Coaching Collective and author of "Culturally Responsive Coaching," reveals how understanding our cultural backgrounds transforms coaching effectiveness.

"Culture is invisible," Mo explains. "We're wearing different colored lenses in how we view the world." This powerful metaphor captures why culturally responsive coaching matters—we often don't recognize the cultural forces shaping our perspectives and behaviors. When coaches learn to identify these influences, they unlock deeper understanding with their clients.

The Asian Women Coaching Collective emerged during COVID when anti-Asian sentiment was rising. Starting with just ten coaches seeking mutual support, it evolved into a thriving community where Asian women coaches can discuss experiences without explanation or judgment. This psychological safety creates space for professional development that honors cultural context—something often missing in mainstream coaching environments.

Mo shares her "ABCs" framework for culturally responsive coaching: Awareness of your own culture, Being curious about others without fear, and Coaching with intention to accelerate progress. These principles help coaches recognize when cultural elements emerge in sessions and respond with powerful questions that acknowledge heritage's influence on leadership and life choices.

Particularly illuminating is Mo's distinction between background and heritage—the latter encompassing not just personal experiences but ancestral influences that shape behavior at a deep level. "It's in our DNA," she notes, suggesting that cultural patterns precede conscious awareness.

Whether you're seeking to understand different cultural perspectives or looking to integrate your own heritage into your coaching practice, this conversation offers practical wisdom for creating more inclusive and effective coaching relationships. Connect with the Asian Women Coaching Collective through LinkedIn or email contact@awcoachingcollective.org to learn more about their work and upcoming events.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Mo Lei Fong here.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author behind this article and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. Join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives. Remember, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching, and let's dive in.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's episode, I'm speaking with ICF certified coach Mo Fong, who is the author of an article in our latest issue Coaching Anti-Racism and the Backlash Against DEI. The article is entitled Culturally Responsive Coaching ~ How the Asian Women Coaching Collective Goes Beyond a One-Size-Fits-All Approach. A little about Mo, she has an MA and MBA, is the President of the Asian Women Coaching Collective and an ICF-certified PCC coach. She's an adjunct lecturer at the Stanford University School of Engineering and the founder of Le Fong Coaching LLC and Friction Fixers. I want to know more about that. She holds an MBA from Harvard Business School, as well as an MA in Education and a BA in Chemical Engineering from Stanford University. I have no idea if she has any spare time, because that sounds like a lot. Mo, thank you so much for joining us today.

Mo Lei Fong:

Oh, thank you so much, Garry, for having me, and I'm working my way towards the PCC, but definitely ACC certified, so thank you.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh well, I'm putting your future out there for everyone to support. I really love the article. There's a lot of resonance as someone first generation, that sort of thing. But what inspired you to write your story for us?

Mo Lei Fong:

Well, I've been thinking about this for quite a while now and doing some research, and certainly during COVID, when there was a lot of questions about, you know, Chinese- American kind of relations going on, and so it really forced me to examine, like, what my identity was, and certainly coming from Taiwan very young age, there was this culture shock, right, and so the article really was a synthesis of all the research I've been doing. And during COVID is when the Asian Women Coaching Collective came about, and so, after talking to many of our members, there were themes that were just coming out from that. So I thought it was time to share all the learnings I've had with the world, and thank you so much to choice Magazine for publishing it.

Garry Schleifer:

I have a feeling that there should be a book.

Mo Lei Fong:

Oh my goodness. OK, maybe.

Garry Schleifer:

When you think about the themes. I'm sure you know you wrote about some of them in the article and you're going to probably tell us a little bit more here. But I'm just thinking like what a supportive resource that might be for for any, I'm going to say in particular women, but I'm sure men as well. But from your perspective it's it's that's helpful. So women, usually underrepresented in resources and things like that. So, anyway, another thing I'm putting out there for you.

Mo Lei Fong:

Well, you heard it here first.

Garry Schleifer:

Mo tell us a little bit more about what is culturally responsive coaching.

Mo Lei Fong:

Yes, this is a great question, because I had to think really hard about what to call it? Because initially I thought it was going to be Culturally Relevant Coaching. But I'm like, well, what's the opposite of culturally relevant, though, right? So it's like, no, culture is always relevant.

Mo Lei Fong:

So this notion about culturally responsive coaching came about when I was talking to a professor at Harvard Business School who started the coaching program there, and we said you know what it's more that we need to be responsive to when we hear elements in our coaching sessions that people are starting to talk about their culture and how it's influenced them both in their leadership and in their lives. And how do we, as coaches, respond to that? And what would drive the next powerful questions that we had to probe a little bit deeper, because most of the time, you know, they say that culture is invisible. We don't see it and it's almost like we're wearing, you know, different colored lenses, the way we view the world. But we're not consciously aware of it. So we're being responsive. It's not only the awareness of it, but how do we respond to it when we hear that our clients are starting to talk a little bit deeper about how they're behaving and how it's influenced by their culture.

Garry Schleifer:

Wow, well said, thank you. And I think the ICF has very clearly in the change of core competencies, the updated core competencies, talking more about background, and you know, when I'm reading what you've written and hearing you speak today, it really speaks to your commitment to bring that out into the open for people, so to speak. To make it relevant to whatever's going on for them.

Mo Lei Fong:

Absolutely, and I would go even beyond the background piece that ICF brings up, because background to me is like lived experiences and certainly that informs our culture. But in my research there's also this notion of heritage. It's everything that our ancestors have really developed over time. Somebody said, like it's in our DNA to behave a certain way. So I'm like, wow, it's in our DNA. So even before we could speak, right, there's already expectations kind of foisted on us. And so our backgrounds are not just our lived experiences, but it's the lived experiences of, you know, kind of the heritage of our family and our ancestors as well.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, and oh my gosh, I loved your article because of the similarities, like, obviously that's why you created the collective, which I want to know more about. But, boy, to hear these different stories and and I was already able to, I guess, think differently, if not actually get to apply what you were writing in my conversations with other people. It just brings so much more awareness and depth to what's possible. And okay, let's face it, I'm this cis white guy and I always say, like, your lived experience and who you are is different than mine, please don't let that get in the way, and tell me more about your heritage, your background that would be relevant to our coaching together.

Mo Lei Fong:

Yeah, 100%, you know. It's funny you mentioned cis white guy because some people say, oh, I was this white guy, I don't have a culture. It's like no, no, no, everyone has a culture.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, cis white guys have a culture.

Mo Lei Fong:

I take people through this exercise of discovering their own culture which is imagine yourself where you don't really know anyone and everything's foreign right, like from the food, from language, all the things that you can see, taste and smell. What if you stepped off from a plane into a new world like that and then you think about and you look around, of all the different rituals are being observed, and then you know, really trying to figure out how am I going to approach someone to figure out how to navigate my way around. It's the things that you are missing that really defines the culture that you came from. So when you say culture shock, right, it's the shock of everything that was familiar is no longer there or accessible to you.

Mo Lei Fong:

Yeah, right and everyone has a story about that. If you've ever traveled or started a new job or you know, just starting a different school. You get that kind of culture shock.

Garry Schleifer:

Well and imagine someone like my mother who went through not just like culture shock within her own culture.

Garry Schleifer:

She's born in what is now the Czech Republic. So after the war, she was basically kicked out of there and to West Germany where she had nothing in common with those people other than language, and even then she was not looked well upon. And then she decided to emigrate to Canada. So you know, similar to your story. It's just like you know culture shock. Where's all my favorite stuff?

Mo Lei Fong:

Yeah, exactly that's a great example.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, and you know when you say DNA that's interesting because I sometimes I just feel like those cultural things, the cultural shock that my mom is experiencing, I have picked up on because there's certain things that I think about and I've applied for citizenship back to Germany.

Mo Lei Fong:

Oh interesting.

Garry Schleifer:

I feel so strongly that I am a German Canadian.

Mo Lei Fong:

Ah. I almost want to put on my coaching hat. What does citizenship mean to you?

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah.

Mo Lei Fong:

To belong to two different countries right.

Garry Schleifer:

Exactly. Well, it means being more connected to my heritage, to use your word. Like everything I feel is kind of like it's German background. You know, I've got the parents, the grandparents, the language because, like you and you told in your story, when my parents came to Canada, it was all about assimilating, and when, in Rome, do as the Romans do is my dad's favorite saying. He could speak English well enough and everything was done in English. I was fortunate that I was amongst German-speaking people for the first few years of my life before I went to school, so I still retain the knowledge and the awareness and ability, I guess, to speak and understand German. So, yeah, so it's, I don't know DNA.

Garry Schleifer:

I'm going to have to think about that. I'll have to reflect on that.

Mo Lei Fong:

Oh, this is good.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, so tell us, you decided to create the Collective. Tell us how that really came about. What is it you haven't published that you should tell us about?

Mo Lei Fong:

Well, the backstory is when I went through my coaching program through the Hudson Institute, I loved the program. It was actually during COVID, so everything was on Zoom and I learned that because it was on Zoom, it was a lot more diverse for my class because people didn't have to travel and there's lots of constraints, especially on underrepresented groups, and so I did feel that it was a diverse class. But still, I think the Asians only made up 10 percent of the coaching program or the cohort that I had. And then when I started to look around and say, well, where are the other Asian coaches or Asian, there were very, very few, and so I maybe knew less than five, and those five knew a couple more. And then we said, okay, I think we have 10 people where we can just come together.

Mo Lei Fong:

And it was not formed as a collective at the time, it was just a group of people who wanted to talk about culture and support each other and support our coaching. Because I think so much of how we coach is influenced by our own cultures too. Because, although we say like there's no judgment in coaching. Somebody was really funny, they said, well, if you say there's no judgment, that's a judgment in itself, right. I was like, okay, that's kind of true. So what we wanted to do is to be that support network for each other, because that was a time where, you know, anti Asian sentiments were actually on the rise. I feel like they're on the rise again. And so how do we think about this? And really, you know, our first time together was just talking about what love looks like because we said you know what there's so much hate, but what makes us feel loved, and what does love look like in our common language?

Mo Lei Fong:

There was a lot of pictures of food when we share it but a lot of family and family is very much an Asian like cultural standard. It's about the collective, the family, filial piety and all of that.

Mo Lei Fong:

So, anyway the 10 of us started meeting on a regular basis. We then started sharing more professional frameworks that we are learning, and it was just a wonderful time of learning. And then we said well, you know, this is a wonderful circle, but what if we created more circles for Asian women so that they could also experience the camaraderie, the friendship and the professional learning? And so we developed catalyst circles and then that evolved into more educational programs. And then we said you know what I think this could be something.

Mo Lei Fong:

And then people threw out what if we had a conference, or a book? So we became a tax exempt 501c3, I had many conversations with the IRS, with, I think it was, Mr. Brown, and he said to me I'm not so sure your audience is big enough to be a 501c3. I'm like what do you mean? I said more than half the world are Asian and it's not meant to be just US, and I'm pretty sure there are quite a lot more coaches aside from Asian women who can be learning through our experiences. So we got past that hurdle. But when I heard that you know your population, there's just not enough of you well, that was pretty telling in itself.

Garry Schleifer:

oh wow, like first of all, what do they care what the number is?

Mo Lei Fong:

Oh, I think for one of the requirements for 501C3 is that it does provide educational programming for the general public, so I can understand that. As we know, like the number of coaches just keep increasing and the impact that we have is well beyond certified coaches, because many leaders now are asked to be coaches too.

Garry Schleifer:

A tool in the toolbox.

Mo Lei Fong:

I'm like you know I think even though our membership might not be massive, although I did say if we wanted to grow into the thousands, we would just like open it up to all of India, all of China. It could grow very quickly. I was like no, no, no. Our framework is that we are slow and steady, because this is a 100% volunteer-led organization, so it's for the members, by the members to the general public, so that we can discover and be discovered together, and so we want to live in cultural resonance and authenticity, and we envision the world where everyone can do so as well. So that's really our vision and mission.

Garry Schleifer:

Wow, cultural resonance, talk about a legacy DNA.

Garry Schleifer:

Amazing, that's amazing. What a great thought to do that, wow.

Garry Schleifer:

And so are you finding that your collective is growing well, more than you expected, less than you expected.

Mo Lei Fong:

This is, I guess, where the no judgment comes in. I don't really hold any expectations in some ways, yeah and it's growing at the rate that organically needs to grow. I tell the members, I hold a container and they're the ones who are filling that container with things that they're passionate about, that they want to share with other people, and so we have, like you know, dozens of recordings now that we've recorded that can be shared with others over time, and we share resources. And so I think to your question of like, is it meeting expectations? I'm like, absolutely a hundred percent meeting expectations. Because we are doing stuff that brings us joy, and I told folks too that if it starts to feel like work, we're doing something wrong, because this should be not only fun and educational, but it should be like filling our cups rather than depleting it.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, well, thank you for that reminder. And it reminds me when I was the President of the Toronto Chapter of ICF back in 2007 to 2009 and people come up with all these great ideas of stuff and I was always a yes, sure, and who's going to do it? And people will do some of them and people wouldn't do the others. And we all just to that question about a conversation about organic it was like and it's not fun, right, if there's no energy behind it, then just let it go. And sure enough, things that had energy poor dropped off, things that we didn't have energy before previously, jumped back on because new people joined and they wanted to be a part of that. It was, yeah, it was a lot of fun. Yeah, I really enjoyed my time doing that. I was like that was a crazy time too.

Mo Lei Fong:

What was the best idea that came out of that time?

Garry Schleifer:

Redoing our local conference and nobody else wanted to do it. So myself and my VP looked at each other and went well, why don't we organize it? So we did, and we did it for two or three years. I don't know that they do it anymore, but they have evolved in other ways and remember that's almost 20 years ago. What stays the same for 20 years? I mean half the stuff we're talking about now stay relevant for 20 minutes, except for what you're doing, that is always going to be relevant. So thank

Mo Lei Fong:

Oh, so many little and big surprises. You know, I think partly is this notion of community. That we come together because of the community and people are really seeking that out, right? So even though folks belong to many communities, there's something very special about this one where there are no explanations necessary when people say I'm really struggling with X, y, z, it's this instant, like okay, I've been there, like yes, let's talk about it, right. And so this wonderful support that is like almost instantaneous from day one has been amazing.

Mo Lei Fong:

And I also think that, you know it's interesting because Asia, as we know, is not a monolith and sometimes, like Asian countries, like they don't get along with other Asian countries. But everyone is able to put those things aside, and it's really about that unity that we see, because we are all coaches, and I think that's the other thing too is that, yes, you can have groups of Asian leaders or Asian women, but I think what makes this particular group unique is that we are all coaches, so we have this professional training on how to listen, how to be empathetic, how to come at what our challenges are, with that common trust and understanding. That makes it really special.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, my goodness, you just. I was just thinking the same thing because we're struggling with 501c whatever's and stuff I'm Canadian, so, but I'm also part of the Gay Coaches Alliance and struggling with what do we call ourselves and, as coaches, to be inclusive but yet distinct. You know, are you finding any pushback being called the Asian Women's Coaching Collective versus all women, or BIPOC women, or things like that? Right?

Mo Lei Fong:

Yeah, it's interesting. How would you define pushback?

Garry Schleifer:

Like why not? Why can't I be a part of your group? Or better yet not to use it to say, but where's my group? Right? Like, oh, wow, that's so great, you have this group for you guys. Where's our group? Right? Because, seriously, we've had lesbians come and approach us about wanting to be a part of our group and it's so hard to say no. That's the other thing about coaches, right, it's so hard to say no, and we're different. If you had me in your group, your conversation would change.

Mo Lei Fong:

It would. It would. I think for the most part, people self-select out, so we haven't had that much pushback if you will. I think what we've encountered is this notion of the majority of our members right now are still East Asian, but we are starting to see more South Asian women join, so that's also a distinction. I've seen, you know, Asian men saying, oh, I wish we had a group like yours, but they're not asking to join because they know this is a special place where we have these shared experiences that I think they would feel a little bit odd.

Mo Lei Fong:

But I always say, like you know, one of the reasons we created this space is because there was a lack of an affinity group, and so it just takes a few people to start one. I'm like, well, if you want an affinity group because you're all interested in something similar, you can create one. This is not unlike affinity groups who are interested in climate and sustainability. Or affinity groups that are interested in, you know, health care or ED tech, right. It's like there are so many affinity groups based on function, but this is based on lived experiences and heritage. So it's just a different type of affinity group in my mind. What's been interesting, though, and will call out that somebody says you know, I don't know if I want to join your group, even though I'm an Asian woman coach, because I don't want to be associated with just being Asian woman or a coach.

Mo Lei Fong:

I want to be seen as being a cross.

Garry Schleifer:

Bu t it is that and so much more it.

Mo Lei Fong:

It could be, and I honor that because I said you know right time and place for everyone, but the fact is you look Asian. You can't erase that.

Mo Lei Fong:

So you can't deny your heritage, right? So I don't know if that person saw joining as having to confront all of that identity that she was not as comfortable with. But it's saying like, hey, I want to be colorblind, which we know in our DEI work or in you know culturally, you know cultural development. It's not about colorblindness, it's about integration of all your identities. But everyone's on a different journey and so hopefully people will see AWCC not as exclusionary, but it's about having a space where we can have some psychological safety to talk about these things and to learn enough so that we can share back out with the world. But for those who want to come and listen, we're going to do more programming for all coaches, but still maintain those spaces where we can come and share more openly without judgment.

Garry Schleifer:

Well said, I love that right time, right place and and you've got it there to welcome them when they're ready.

Mo Lei Fong:

When they're ready.

Garry Schleifer:

When they're ready. I love it. What would you like to say to all of us coaches about what you've done, what you've learned?

Mo Lei Fong:

I kind of go through ABCs like one is just to have an awareness of your own culture and that it is important to be culturally responsive. And the B is for being curious. So, once you have the awareness about yourself and others, and the being curious means that approaching it without fear, because I think some people fear talking about okay, I'm going to ask something that is going to offend you. But if I'm actually curious about LGBTQ or if I'm curious about people's cultural identities, for the most part people are more than open to talking about. In fact, they would be welcoming. You know that conversation and, of course, you can always frame it as like, if you don't feel comfortable, we don't have to talk about it. But I was just curious, right. So the be curious.

Mo Lei Fong:

And then the C is more around coaching with intention and so, while we're curious and we can learn a lot, how do we then integrate that into our coaching so that we can accelerate progress, right? So somebody comes to us and says I have a really hard time speaking up in this meeting and then we unpack that. I t could be because of deference to hierarchy that we were raised not to speak up when there's an elder or somebody with higher positions of power, right. But if our clients need to have that confidence to be able to act differently and you know the meetings that they're in whatnot then understanding oh yeah, that's that's why I behave the way I do. And then how do we devise opportunities and, maybe even some coaching experiments? For our clients to just start in in safe spaces, of course. I don't want to go gangbusters in your next meeting if you've never ever spoken before, to practice right.

Garry Schleifer:

f, you make it sound like shifting gears, like let's go from A to B to C and drive.

Mo Lei Fong:

Oh the D.

Garry Schleifer:

We don't drive, we passenger.

Mo Lei Fong:

We let our clients drive. There you go.

Garry Schleifer:

Right, exactly the big D drive. Oh, my goodness, Mo. Thank you so much. What would you like our audience to do as a result of this article and the conversation?

Mo Lei Fong:

Yeah, I think if folks want to learn more about AWCC or, more broadly, culturally responsive coaching, they can contact us at contact at awcoachingcollective. org. More than happy to set up meetings. We have a town hall coming up, you know, but we have them on a regular basis and they can find out more about that through our LinkedIn profile. So if you look up Asian Women Coaching Collective on LinkedIn, that's where we post most of our information wow.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, thank you so much for that and for doing what you're doing, or done, done and doing what you're doing.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh well, whatever the past, the present and the future.

Mo Lei Fong:

Oh, yes, and going to do, because you've already made some predictions, so that's good.

Garry Schleifer:

No, and again, wherever the energy is, if that's the case, somebody may pick it up, because I hear a lot through the conversations about culture and heritage and all that. There's so many fabulous stories about lived experiences that help us understand, I'll say me, helps me understand what you know, what goes on, what's gone on and and just kind of builds my knowledge and understanding, compassion, empathy for people's differences, for what's going on.

Mo Lei Fong:

Yeah absolutely, and thank you for sharing your stories, too, and for all the work with choice magazine.

Mo Lei Fong:

I think it's just a tremendous resource. So we keep learning together.

Garry Schleifer:

Yes, thank you, and don't be a stranger. You can write for us or have someone in your collective reach out to me and about any topic.

Mo Lei Fong:

Fantastic.

Garry Schleifer:

Thank you, and the best way to reach you is that contact at awcoachingcollective. org.

Mo Lei Fong:

Yes, right.

Mo Lei Fong:

Yep .org.

Garry Schleifer:

Mo, thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode.

Mo Lei Fong:

Thank you for having me, Garry.

Garry Schleifer:

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here in the first place. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine, you can sign up for a free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right-hand corner if you're watching this video, or, if it's by audio, by going to choice-online. com and click the Sign Up Now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.