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Episode 148: Bridging Racial Divides in Coaching with guest, Gloria Custodio
What happens when racial and cultural differences show up in coaching relationships? Social leadership coach Gloria Custodio brings her multifaceted experience spanning law, business, education, and nonprofit leadership to tackle this critical question during a time of heightened political polarization.
Gloria introduces us to the powerful distinction between cultural competence and cultural humility. While competence suggests mastery—a checkbox approach to understanding differences—humility embraces ongoing curiosity about both our own and others' identities. This approach perfectly aligns with coaching's foundation of openness, wonder, and comfort with not knowing. As Gloria explains, cultural humility creates not just safe spaces but brave spaces where authentic exploration thrives.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Gloria shares her personal journey using loving-kindness meditation to transform her reactions to politically charged symbols in her community. Rather than avoiding or condemning those with different views, she cultivated genuine curiosity about what their perspectives meant to them. This inner work enabled her to hold space for clients navigating political polarization without being overtaken by her own reactions—a skill increasingly essential for coaches today.
Perhaps most practical is Gloria's approach to identity-informed coaching. She suggests asking open-ended questions like "How does your identity play into this?" rather than making assumptions about which clients have "culture" worth exploring. This gives clients autonomy to bring forward whatever aspects of their identity feel most relevant in the moment, whether racial, gender, cultural, or religious. Coaches are encouraged to show themselves the same grace they extend to clients when navigating these sometimes uncomfortable conversations.
Subscribe to Beyond the Page for more conversations that expand your coaching toolkit and challenge you to create more inclusive, effective coaching relationships. As Gloria reminds us: "Integrity in coaching means showing up authentically and being open to learning so every client feels seen, heard and valued."
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here.
Learn more about Gloria Custodio.
Free Gift for Listeners: Coaching Across Difference: A Reflection Guide
Coaching across lines of race, identity, and culture requires more than good intentions: it takes humility, presence, and practice. In this reflection guide, Gloria Custodio invites coaches into a deeper, more courageous exploration of how we show up across difference.
Inside you’ll find:
- Self-reflection prompts to increase cultural awareness
- Coaching questions that build trust and psychological safety
- Subtle signals of bias to watch for in your practice
- 30-day commitments to move from insight to action
Whether you're new to this work or deepening an existing practice, this guide offers a grounded, human-centered way to coach with integrity, even in a time of backlash.
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Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest article, h ave a chat with this brilliant author behind it and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you have a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives. Remember, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching. But in the meantime, let's dive in.
Garry Schleifer:In today's episode, I'm speaking with social leadership coach Gloria Custodio, who is the author of an article in our latest issue Coaching, Anti-racism and the Backlash Against DEI. Her article is entitled Inclusive and Impactful Coaching ~ Practical Strategies for Bridging Racial and Cultural Differences. Gloria is a social leadership coach with a multifaceted career spanning, wait for it, law, business, education and nonprofit leadership. Not just that she's been a federal judicial law clerk, a million-dollar retail business owner, a university instructor, a classroom teacher and a school administrator. I have no idea if she has any spare time, but she's an ICF Professional Certified Coach and trained Transformational Coach. Gloria helps leaders navigate complexity, drive impact and lead with purpose. Passionate about equity, inclusion and social change, she empowers individuals and organizations to grow and thrive on their own terms. Gloria, thank you so much for joining me today.
Gloria Custodio :Thank you, Garry. It's such a pleasure to be here with you.
Garry Schleifer:You know, normally I ask people why they wrote the article that they wrote. But you write in your article that you're a proud Puerto Rican woman and with being part of the US and still being on an island and a bit separate and all of that, but anything else that just got you going on
Gloria Custodio :The political climate in the United States right now is very challenging, particularly for people who are not in the mainstream. So BIPOC people, queer people, non-religious people, so that, and you know, coaching is my jam, writing is my jam, and I feel very strongly that we should all show up in the ways that our gifts call us to witness and, to, you know, contribute to the world. And this is my little contribution. If I can help someone navigate what they think is a difficult moment with a client a little bit better and learn that it's okay to sit with discomfort. That's why I wrote this article.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, well that, and thank you very much because you gave some very, very practical tips. We put them in sidebars in the article. I always reread the article before I meet again, although I probably read it like four times before it gets to press. But a good reminder and I want to let you know that as I was reading it, some of the things popped out that didn't pop out before even for me, and some, uh, talk about biases and I'm aware of them. It's not that it's become a realization, but it's kind of like oh well, Gloria said it in print, so now I know it's real.
Garry Schleifer:But no, all kidding aside, I noticed how I treat people of different sexes differently, how I don't ask cultural questions of white cisgender males and I'm afraid to ask them of BIPOC individuals. So one of my questions and hoping I can get this out of our conversation today is how do I, how do I, merge those two different biases? Like I'm aware of them? How do I, you know, work with it?
Gloria Custodio :I think you've done the very important first step, which is to ask yourself I've noticed that I approach these conversations with different people differently and why is that? And acknowledge that that's real and true and that is why I think I like the term to be culturally humble, to have cultural humility instead of to be culturally competent, because competency sort of implies that you master something so that you master your bias, and then you become really adept at asking questions of cisgender white males or you know people of color and you're good. Checkmark Yay, gold star. But to be culturally humble means that you are open and curious about your own identity and how it influences you, as well as other people's identities and how they define themselves. And that's a fluid thing, so there's never an ending point. It's more of a mindset and it's really a coaching mindset.
Gloria Custodio :It's our coaching mindset of curiosity and of sitting with discomfort and not knowing and just holding space. And it's holding space for the client and it's holding space for us in our awareness of our own biases and our own, which are really our own lenses. It's who we are. We have different experiences, we have different personalities, we have different beliefs, and these beliefs are always changing and shifting. So if we are aware of that and we're curious about that for ourselves, then we are way more likely to be able to extend that curiosity to our clients and to hold not, just a safe space, but a brave space.
Garry Schleifer:Right, well said, a brave space. Yeah, I think it starts with this old coach here too, right? Being brave enough to A notice and B aware and not be, oh my goodness, I would never think of myself as culturally competent but thank you very much for that pointing because the cultural humility gives us that space and grace to, wow, what can we do? What do we do differently? What are we aware of? Continuous learning that you talk very much about in the article? I want to go back to something else you said about how this current climate is showing up in your life. How is it showing up in your coaching conversations? Who are you coaching? What are some things that stand out for you as common impacts?
Gloria Custodio :You know, something that wasn't as common before is that clients are more, they're more wanting of psychological safety and they're less trusting of it. So they're more questioning about the confidentiality of the space. And that's something that hadn't really shown up as much before, and also it's because my sister, whom I work with, and are doing a joyful democracy initiative where we reach out to advocates and people who work in the government and who are under harassment and threat and all of that. This particular people, because of their political beliefs and also maybe because they are of racial minority or they're queer or they're not the normative religious background they feel attacked and when they come into coaching it is hard for them, one to relax and another to trust that there's somebody there who's there not to police them, not to fit them into a little box and not to expose them. So to relax into the safety of the space is, I think, has become a bit harder for for clients.
Garry Schleifer:And are you talking about like and I picture right away it's like are we talking about clients that have been coaching for a while, or new clients, like who has more hesitancy?
Gloria Custodio :I think I've seen it more in new clients, because old clients bring more stress, but they do trust the safe space.
Gloria Custodio :They just show up with like feeling, more stressed and overwhelmed and maybe hopeless so I've had to do a lot of work with myself to be in a place where I can legitimately help them to see that they have agency, that even if the system is being oppressive right now, that there are ways to make a difference, that there are ways to sustain themselves, joy being one of those ways, and reaching out and connecting to people who also feel the same way. Because one of the problems right now is that people feel that everybody is against DEI, that everybody is against inclusion and diversity, which sounds ridiculous if you think who can be against DEI, honestly? But they feel because this is the government's stance right now from the top, and that it's so amplified in social media that then everybody must be like this. And it's helping people see that, no, even people who are different from you, if you talk to them, if you approach them, you know it's not the horrible thing that the catastrophic like black cloud.
Garry Schleifer:Right.
Gloria Custodio :That it feels like sometimes.
Garry Schleifer:Well, and you know, what you reminded me of is honor lived experiences. So it you know, first of all, honor what they're saying, that that's what's the case for them, and then, secondly, you know, just start to help them expand their horizons. See, where it resides, sometimes somatically and things like that. I mean you must have done a lot of work because you were directly impacted by the new administration.
Gloria Custodio :So I actually have a good story about that. So in my old job, I used to be a school administrator and I had to drive half an hour from my home every single day, and one day, because I live, I usually I am in Florida, and Florida is a red state and a Trump superstore popped up before the election, whatever and I said, oh my God, what am I going to do? I'm going gonna see this every single day. And so it became instead, every time I went by, I did a loving kindness meditation, which I actually learned about in my transformational coaching program, and so it helped me be curious, because it is may they be safe, may they be happy, may they all of that and it took a few months of doing this twice a day, and finally I was like I'm curious about what this means to that person, and that was like a light bulb going off in my head that I could actually be curious and that I have been able to maintain.
Gloria Custodio :And so now, instead of feeling like oh my God, this is horrible, why are these people this way, I'm actually curious about what is it that being against DEI is giving to this person and more thinking and truly deeply connecting to their humanity. So that allows me to, in my coaching sessions, be able to not so identify with the client's concern that we are both going down the rabbit hole. So I can, keep that in mind, but it took time and it took effort.
Gloria Custodio :It was very intentional because I said you know I live in an area where you know it's not necessarily affirming, so I need to make sure that I can affirm myself from a really grounded, real place, not just, you know, toxic positivity but a real, real thing. And so that has allowed me to be able to sit in a session with a client who's struggling with that as well and hold that space for them to be able to acknowledge but not sink into it, not be overtaken Yes, the it.
Garry Schleifer:The shock, wow, great great work
Gloria Custodio :But that was, that took a while, and it's the same thing. I started doing it with all the signage and for some reason and I don't think any other country is the same, but in the United States the American flag has sort of been weaponized and taken over, and so I started doing that with the flag as well. And now I'm like, if you have a humongous flag on top, now I can say huh, I wonder what this means for them. I wonder what they're trying to convey instead of just saying, oh my God, run away, this person is not safe for me.
Garry Schleifer:know because we live with everyone and and at the core they're still human.
Gloria Custodio :Another thing is, in my neighborhood which is predominantly doesn't think like I do, but all the neighbors speak to each other and I have on my lawn I have a sign that says black lives matter and kindness is important here and love is love and science is real, and all of that that's on my lawn because I'm like I'm gonna say what I mean.
Garry Schleifer:You do you, I do me, right?
Gloria Custodio :Yes, and so they all know and we are all very nice to each other. I mean, when there are hurricanes the neighbors come out and help each other, and so that also helps to see that even if in one part they might believe something that I cannot understand and they might have voted a way that I cannot understand that the humanity is there, and when you see people's humanity, then you also know that there's a possibility for change and for doing better, making better decisions for the country, and, you know, not giving up and just going to hide which doesn't help.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, well, and I'm sure that reflects very well in your coaching.
Garry Schleifer:And again, thank you for all the the tips and the exercises that you put in your article. I'm gonna go back to asking another question about what you're seeing in your coaching. So what are some quiet ways racism still shows up in the coaching spaces.
Gloria Custodio :Well, implicit bias is real because we all have our way of looking at the world and we all think that the way that we were raised, or the way that we are, or who we are, is how the world should be in a very foundational way. So one of the ways that it shows up and it might show up from the client to you, or from you to the client is those stereotypes or those unspoken beliefs that you might have about someone.
Garry Schleifer:Right.
Gloria Custodio :And I am Puerto Rican, so so I'm a minority and I'm very conscious of that and how that influences me, and I'm a woman as well and I am queer, so that that also goes. So in those areas I feel more aware. But then when a client comes in that is not of those, so it might be, you know, a cisgender white male then I need to check myself and check my assumptions, because not all cisgender white males are the same.
Garry Schleifer:No, we're not.
Gloria Custodio :You know that because you're one right, and I know that all Puerto Rican women are not the same, because I am one. But I need to remind myself and, if I ever had because right now most of my clients seek me out so they know who I am, but I am I am starting out with a program that matches me with their people, so that might be a thing where I have to be really conscious of what they might interpret me as, or what I might interpret them as. I haven't had a client who is homophobic or racist at this point.
Gloria Custodio :Oh, at least overtly, but that is something that I'm sure could happen.
Garry Schleifer:How much you share about yourself when you're faced with someone who hasn't sought you out per se or done the work? Do you declare all of these things or do you just insert them as they are at the intro?
Gloria Custodio :That's a good question.
Garry Schleifer:For me, when I'm meeting with someone, so let's say I was meeting with you, I point out the obvious difference. I'm a man, you're a woman. Please don't let that ever get in the way. I know there's stuff that guys are doing. Bring it on. You know it's not me, I won't take it personally and I want you to feel free to be able to speak about anything, anything. It's a confidential, safe space.
Garry Schleifer:And eventually, down the road, something will pop in because I'm me first, and then I'm everything else a publisher, a coach, a gay man, and then, and then right, so it. And it never phases anybody. That's the other thing. Any of the people that I'm working with as a coach, it never phases them, but I don't go out blasting who I am. I just see as it serves, I guess. Maybe I'm answering my own question.
Gloria Custodio :Yeah, I agree, that's what I do, and I have never yet found a situation where I had the sense that it was unsafe or inappropriate to do so. I'm assuming that if there was a situation where it wouldn't serve the person because they had either such a wall against me or I felt such resistance to them, then it would be better not to work with that person. We're not everybody's cup of tea and that's okay. It hasn't happened yet, but I know that it might but I do tend to just follow my gut feeling and, at the beginning, with the confidentiality and letting them know that it's a space where it's for them and they can bring anything. I tend to sort of work that in.
Gloria Custodio :But yeah, I tend to follow my gut on that, not how it's gripped.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, and less is more sometimes if it serves. Remember, what I will say, as I'm learning from this whole article and the conversation for me is that I will now look at how and when to ask questions about questions to everyone about culture. Would I say culture to? Yeah, guess, because we all have some form of culture. I guess my culture background is German, right, so that's a cultural thing. Yours is Puerto Rican, right, and Latina and you know, and Floridian, right, so how does your culture? Because the bias I have is oh, white people, I don't have to ask them about culture. BIPOC people, you have to ask about culture, and that's ridiculous. That doesn't make any sense. My point is the thing I'm taking away from the article and the conversation is that I will make a more concerted effort of asking everyone equally about so how does your culture and your cultural background play into it? Will it play into a conversation?
Gloria Custodio :he, what I tend to use is and it depends on the person as well, because some people, the term that you use depends on the person, but my go-to tends to be how does your identity play into this? And that way it's open-ended and they can take it wherever. So their identity might be their racial identity, their cultural identity, their gender identity, their religious identity.
Gloria Custodio :So, they can take it wherever they want to and it's an ongoing conversation because, depending on the situation, a different part of their identity might come into play, and so that's why it's not like cultural humility, and all of that is not an end point for a state to reach, but a mindset that you sort of navigate and grow really.
Garry Schleifer:Well, thank you. I know what I'm going to do as a result of this article and this conversation, but what would you like our audience to do as a result of this article and this conversation and maybe me? Some more for me.
Gloria Custodio :I would love for people to become more curious in general not just coaches, but people to become more curious about other people's identities and also their own identity and how these different facets show up in our lives and in our relationships with each other. And so for coaches just to show themselves the grace that they strive to show their clients. So it's okay to be uncomfortable with questions of identity in their sessions. It's okay not to know, it's okay to ponder what is the right thing. Just sit with it and give yourself that space and trust your gut. You know, trust your gut and you will, more likely than not, figure it out. And particularly, you don't have to figure it out by yourself. You have your client right there. We always talk about the coaching relationship is co-creation. This is a space to co-create with your client what it means to navigate identity as it shows up in our lives, and I think that's a good thing.
Garry Schleifer:Thank you, and I will quote you. At the end of the article you said "ultimately, integrity and coaching means showing up authentically and being open to learning so every client feels seen, heard and valued.
Gloria Custodio :And I still agree with that.
Garry Schleifer:Honor that right, let's just honor that. Excellent. Gloria, thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. What's the best way for people to reach you if they'd like to know more?
Gloria Custodio :So we have a website. It's the social leadership coach. com. And that's where we have contact information, we have articles, we have free PDF books. We have tons of things.
Garry Schleifer:Awesome. Well, this is you and your sister.
Gloria Custodio :My sister Christina, who's a master coach. Yes.
Garry Schleifer:Awesome. Keep it in the family. I love it.
Gloria Custodio :Mm-hmm.
Garry Schleifer:Well, thanks again.
Gloria Custodio :Thank you.
Garry Schleifer:That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app. If you're not a subscriber to cchoice Magazine, you can sign up for your free issue by scanning the QR code on the top right-hand corner of this screen. If you're watching, if you're listening, go to choice-online. com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.