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Episode 149: Coaching Immigrants to Leadership Success with guests, Shankar Subramaniam & Mukhunth Raghavan
Dr. Shankar Subramaniam & Dr. Mukhunth Raghavan unveil their groundbreaking Illuminant framework, designed to help coaches support immigrant professionals navigating leadership challenges in unfamiliar cultural landscapes.
Drawing from their personal journeys as immigrants, both experts share powerful insights into the complex realities faced by those seeking to lead in new cultural contexts. Dr. Subramaniam describes immigration not as a simple transition but as "a very torturous path" involving separation from support systems and complex adaptation processes. Dr. Raghavan adds perspective from growing up as an expatriate, witnessing firsthand how globalization shapes career trajectories and workplace dynamics.
The Illuminant assessment tool examines the tension between motivation to lead and obstacles to change, tracing these forces to what they call "causal determinants" – individual predisposition, family dynamics, and cultural environment. This framework helps coaches identify how clients can leverage their unique cultural backgrounds while adapting to new leadership expectations.
What makes this work particularly valuable is its practical application to real-world challenges faced by immigrant professionals. Many struggle with the conflict between Western leadership expectations of boldness and risk-taking versus cultural programming that emphasizes deference and harmony. Additionally, visa status concerns often create fear around "rocking the boat," limiting authentic leadership expression.
Though developed with immigrants in mind, the Illuminant framework proves remarkably versatile. As Dr. Raghavan explains, anyone navigating unfamiliar cultural territory can benefit from this approach – from women in male-dominated fields to professionals relocating between regions with different norms.
Success stories highlight the framework's transformative potential: professionals transitioning from toxic to healthy work environments, individuals learning to own their expertise despite cultural conditioning toward deference, and new graduates navigating their first leadership opportunities.
Ready to enhance your coaching practice with this innovative approach? The Illuminant assessment is available free to coaches seeking to better support clients across cultural boundaries. Connect with Dr. Subramaniam at drshankar@drshankarcoach.com or Dr. Raghavan at mukhunth@gmail.com to learn more.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here.
Learn more about Shankar Subramaniam here.
Learn more about Mukhunth Raghavan here.
Free gift - First three respondents can sign up for a free coaching session with Shankar at this link https://www.drshankarcoach.com/ and registering as a site member. Please email Shankar at drshankar@drshankarcoach.com to request the service (CHOICE2025 is the discount code)
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Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest article, have a chat with these brilliant authors that wrote them and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. Join a vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives. Remember, this choice is your go-to resource for all things coaching. But in the meantime, let's dive in.
Garry Schleifer:In today's episode, I'm speaking with Executive Coach Shankar Subramaniam and psychometric, I had to struggle with this one, Psychometrician, Mukhuth Raghavan, who are the authors of an article in our latest issue Coaching Anti-Racracism and The Backlash A gainst DEI. The article they wrote is called Aspiring Immigrant Leaders Face Unique Challenges Coaching Immigrants for Leadership. A little bit of about Shankar. He has a PhD, CCCP, almost sounds like the Russian Soviet Union, but anyway, PEC. He is the president and CEO of Dr. Shankar Coaching and Consulting, an internationally recognized academic researcher turned executive coach. Shankar's passion is understanding people and helping them unlock their innate excellence through coaching and team building. He focuses on coaching leaders for communication and executive presence especially immigrant professionals in the tech industry.
Garry Schleifer:He brings experience from a quarter century of research in engineering, as well as teaching and advising, founding a research center and developing an award-winning mentoring program for junior faculty. He is Emeritus Professor of Mechanical Engineering at Iowa State University. A little bit about Mukhunth. Mukhunth is a talented strategist, psychometrician and AI researcher shaping the future of work. Oh, we will touch on that. With a PhD in industrial organizational psychology, he has pioneered machine learning tools for personality assessment and designed innovative talent systems for Fortune 500 companies. His work has transformed leadership development, workforce analytics and coaching strategies. Passionate about unlocking human potential, Mukhunth integrates cutting-edge research with practical solutions to ensure that individuals and organizations thrive. He currently works as a research scholar at Tampa General Hospital, investigating the impact of professional development on worker and patient outcomes. Wow, thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us today on this podcast.
Shankar Subramaniam :Thank you for having us, Garry. We're delighted to be here.
Garry Schleifer:Okay, you guys are not only in different realms, you're in different parts of the country down in the US. How did you guys get together and how did this whole project paper and model evolve?
Shankar Subramaniam :You want to take that Vikram?
Mukhunth Raghavan:Yeah, it's a great question. We met through a mutual friend who I met at a previous workplace. In fact, the friend that connected us, I hadn't seen him or Shankar in person, even though I'd known them for about a couple of years at that point, until we met at our friend's wedding. So I flew across the country to California to attend that wedding and see them both in person. Shankar at the time was going through his coaching certification program and was working on this research project, and brought me in just to consult on some of the thoughts that he was playing with it and that evolved into what you have today, a full published article.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, brilliant, it's brilliant. Now I have to ask did either of you feel that what you were doing applied to you? Like, are you American born and raised, or American citizens, or still like, and I don't want to go over any boundaries, but what's your status in all of this?
Shankar Subramaniam :Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that, Garry, because it is very personal for me. I'm an immigrant from India, so I came here to study on a student visa to the US and then I went through all the steps of legal immigration. You know, getting that a long time on a student visa for about 10 years maybe and then working through the work permit, you know, the permanent residence, and then finally taking the decision to become a citizen, which was not an easy one because it meant renouncing my Indian citizenship. There was a lot of grappling with values and what it means, and now I'm a naturalized citizen of the US.
Shankar Subramaniam :I'm happy to be that, but I'm glad you brought that up, because it's not just this easy one and done thing where you bolt to another country and it's this paradise that you quickly hop into it. It's a very torturous, sometimes, path being away from your support systems, your family, not being able to be with your extended family for important events like births and deaths and weddings. But I'm happy for the journey, I've gained a lot from it, and so thank you for asking and I'll turn it over to Mukhunth.
Mukhunth Raghavan:So I've kind of lived the expatriate life my whole life. I was born in India but raised in the Middle East and moved over to the US for school. So right now I'm in the US, but sort of my entire life has been categorized by this growing trend of globalization. Witnessing my family moving out of different countries just to gain other opportunities at work, and that kind of led towards my research as well. Part of my research focuses on cross-cultural practices at work and kind of the challenges that people face when they either are working with people from across boundaries or are moving across borders to find employment. So it is quite a personal note here. I think there is a lot of work that is currently coming out. Thinking about how, growing up, I heard about globalization as it is happening. I think now we live in a world that is globalized and increasingly so. So it is quite close to both my interests and also my lived experience, so I'm happy to be part of this.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, well, and it's interesting. So you've brought this all together. You have a model called The Illuminant, and what would have been different if this was around when you were going through your process? Makes you wonder whether it would have would have helped, or you know, what else you would have created if that existed already, right?
Mukhunth Raghavan:Certainly, certainly, yeah, absolutely, I think.
Mukhunth Raghavan:I think I really something that I missed as I was exploring coaching options or even mentorship was this connection with a lived experience that a lot of immigrants face, which is kind of being away from your support system, as Shankar mentioned, facing multiple different challenges, such as your family background or social, cultural dynamics that might be different from the place where you're currently staying in. If there was a tool like this or even a framework to help mentors guide people that they might not share the same background with, I think it would have helped me feel maybe a little bit more comfortable in workplaces and maybe feel a little bit more seen, and also I think the outcome of those mentorship or coaching practices would have sat with me a little more saliently. I actually had an experience of that when I worked with Shankar as my coach initially, right after we were introduced through our mutual friend, and that sparked a lot of light bulbs for me. So when Shankar was saying, hey, I'm working on this project immediately, I thought this is great, this is something that is really useful.
Shankar Subramaniam :Yeah.
Mukhunth Raghavan:Shankar, anything you'd add to that?
Shankar Subramaniam :Yeah Thanks, Mukhunth. Yeah, first of all I'm very grateful to I should mention our mutual friend Nikhil Selvam. I want to call him out there, Cohort of my Columbia Coaching Certification Program, that's the CCCP.
Garry Schleifer:That sounds like the Columbia Coaching Program, the former USSR yeah.
Shankar Subramaniam :But they call it 3CP. So Nikhil was just an amazing peer, a student there. He's also a coach and he put me in touch with Makhunth, and talking to these gentlemen, you know, I'm a little bit older than them, has really helped me a lot. It's put me in touch with how a younger generation sees these issues. And going back to your question about what would life have been different had we had something like Illuminate, I think it would have been, first of all, a fantastic idea that we could actually integrate our cultural experiences rather than just be forced to assimilate into a dominant culture and I think previous generations, that of immigrants, had that.
Shankar Subramaniam :And, as you know, there's a difference between how the US sees immigration versus Canada does so.
Shankar Subramaniam :In Canada, I hear it's a mosaic, but here it's a melting pot, and in a melting pot you kind of give up your identity to become part of a greater whole, whereas in a mosaic you retain parts of your individual identity and across the edges you blend into something more beautiful.
Shankar Subramaniam :So maybe there's almost a national viewpoint about this that's different between the US and Canada, but nonetheless, I mean we had great experiences in the US. We have concepts, but then you have lived experience, which is really what counts, and for me, I'd say it would have been very inspiring to see that somebody had gone through this thought process of explaining to me what was holding me back, explaining to me why I felt uncomfortable in certain cultural or work situations, giving me confidence that my culture had value, that there were values that I could still hold on to, but yet succeed by adopting the best things from the new culture that I was in, because there's beautiful things in all cultures and I think having the wisdom to take the best from both is what really this is all about.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, yeah, well said, yeah, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I'm Canadian born and raised, but it doesn't mean that my German background doesn't come into the call as far as our traditions and and things like that. But then also, you know, going to other people's places and like having a potluck at work and there's food from all nations. That's always great. Well, we've talked circles around I lluminate. Maybe we should tell our listeners what is Illuminant and why is it important.
Shankar Subramaniam :Okay. So Illuminant is an assessment tool that will help us figure out leadership mindset, help us classify leadership mindset and help coaches actually work with clients in that growth and change process, which involves making them better leaders or, you know, making them leaders in the first place. So that's what Illuminate is all about, and it came out of my research project at Columbia and I was very happy to have Mukhunth come on and help me a lot with the idea of an assessment. I didn't have that social science background that Mukhunth has. I'm primarily a coach and so I was very, very grateful to have him guide me through the design of the questions and teaching me about the importance of statistical analysis of the data that would come out of it and stuff like that.
Shankar Subramaniam :So Illuminate is the outcome of a model. We have a model which is basically looking at a motivation to lead as being the primary driving force for a client to become a leader, and then there are obstacles to change, which is an oppositional force that sort of prevents us from becoming the best leaders that we could be. And so the model says that there are these two oppositional forces. And so how do we analyze the dimensions of the motivation to lead and the things that create obstacles for us to change, to become a better leader? And we trace the origin of those forces to what we call causal determinants. So basically your individual predisposition, the family dynamics that you encountered when you were growing up and the cultural environment in which you grew up and, of course, that you're now in.
Shankar Subramaniam :So all those changes and that family dynamics helps us distinguish between first and second generation immigrants. So it helps us tease out that difference and using that, we also brought in some research on motivation, general theories of motivation, where they say that people seek autonomy, competence and relatedness are three sort of very important valences, they say, that drive us to do things. And so what we try to see is if you're supported in those that would give you a motivation to lead, and if you were unsupported in those then that might be an obstacle to change. And so, using that, we built this model. And then we have a bunch of questions and it could be it's a self-assessment so a coach would give it to a client and they could work on it, and then you have a whole guide how to interpret the answers, and so we try to be pretty thoughtful about using that and then they could build into follow-on coaching questions that they could use.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, you had some great questions in the article as well. It begs a bit of the question. I mean, okay, so part of it's obvious. If they're immigrants right, because they'll hopefully self-declare or something will be an indicator in the onboarding in coaching. How do you know that Illuminant, like what are the indicators and the things people are saying that goes Oh, I should use this assessment. Is it strictly struggle with leadership or anything else?
Shankar Subramaniam :That's a great question.
Shankar Subramaniam :Yeah, you want to take that Mukhunth?
Mukhunth Raghavan:Go ahead, Shankar. I'll follow up.
Shankar Subramaniam :So Mukhunth and I talked about this a lot, because so many of the topics we talk about are just pertinent to leadership in general. They're not restricted to immigrants, and sometimes when I look at America, I say that our first immigrants were the Pilgrim Fathers. So we're all immigrants.
Garry Schleifer:Exactly. I don't think a lot of people remember that. Sorry. Being safe up here in Canada so far, I can say that.
Shankar Subramaniam :With jokes apart, I think what really happens is we have a work culture and that work culture is shaped by certain dominant forces. In a capitalist system you have capital and labor coming in and you know the social groups that correspond to those could be different. And I think when you insert yourself as a leader into that mix, recognizing what are the rules of the game, what are the unwritten norms in that space, is something that even someone who's not an immigrant, whose individual predisposition is perhaps an outlier in the society, they might face that. So I would say leadership is more a trigger. A desire to lead is more a trigger to offer the assessment than the immigrant.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, I would say that because we were just talking about first generation, second generation. You know I'm first gen, and I do have some, you know, cultural pressures or expectations from family. Have you ever tried to explain to your parents that are in their nineties what coaching is? Okay, Seriously, you know, but my mother's a regular reader of choice magazine, so I think she's starting to get it. At 92, she's getting it. She looks forward to every issue but anyway. So to your point, if we're all immigrants, anyone could use this tool.
Mukhunth Raghavan:Right.
Mukhunth Raghavan:Right, and while this tool is built with the context that it will help immigrants specifically, like Shankar is saying, I think this is quite generalizable to people.
Mukhunth Raghavan:So when I came to the US for college, I came to Mississippi, and that was a great learning opportunity for me because it was excellent to see folks from within the US coming to a state that they hadn't been to before and experiencing almost as much culture shock as I was experiencing coming from a completely different country and kind of learning how to navigate the norms in this new space that they find themselves in.
Mukhunth Raghavan:I had a fantastic time at the university and I take almost any opportunity to learn from people and I think that kind of sparked my interest in understanding who people are and why they do the things that they do, and so the context of individual predispositions, including personality or lived experiences, is built into this tool, and we intend this to be used as kind of a guide to help people and meet them where they are, regardless of their background. So while we are focused on the immigrant perspective, I think this is broadly applicable to anybody, especially folks who find themselves in a new or different space than what they were used to.
Shankar Subramaniam :Yeah and actually to pick up on that. Thank you Mukhunth for bringing that up because I do think of women as another group who, when they enter a male dominated workspace, they encounter unique challenges. Or, you know, other minorities may feel the same thing. So it's not just immigrants. There are, you know, African-Americans or Native Americans entering into a workspace may find that similar challenge. But what Mukhunth said is really so true, because when I was in upstate New York I had friends from New York who would have a lot of difficulty going down south to Florida.
Shankar Subramaniam :I'm not kidding. Crossing that Mason-Dixon line was something.
Garry Schleifer:Right, that's a thing. I'm glad you said that. Another article in this issue by Mo Fong talks about the Asian Women's Coaching Collective and specifically why that was created around the challenges of coaches, of leaders, based on an Asian culture and Asian pressures. And so when you say minority and women, I had to do a shout out to Mo for her article as well. Right, one of the things that I don't know if we're afraid to talk about, but that is the, the um, the status of your visa, the status of your immigration process and the impact that it has on your leadership journey. Right, I have one or two clients and they're both on I don't know whatever the visas or green card application or sponsor. You know various portions you might know from your lived experience, and so they're hesitant to rock the boat to what you were saying in your article.
Garry Schleifer:They're hesitant to rock the boat because they are afraid somebody might revoke their status, revoke their visa, right, like basically kick them out because they can't leave the company that sponsored them to get to the country, right? So I'm hoping that this is this type of thing would help a coach, help me as a coach work with this person saying right, oh, actually. Okay, guys. Thank you. Like light bulb, I'll use this the next time I work with my clients. I know one specifically who's got this job. Oh great, that's so good to hear.
Shankar Subramaniam :Yeah, maybe Mukhunth can talk a little bit about this, because we actually delved into some of this in our coaching. This point of your visa status affecting how you show up at work and it's particularly difficult because in America, I feel leaders are expected to be bold, challenge authority and take bold steps, whereas you know your visa status basically makes you conform to a kind of model minority, where you don't surface problems and everything is great.
Shankar Subramaniam :Everything is good.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, keep your head down, don't surface problems, don't cause a problem. Don't be bold to your point. Don't be brave, don't be bold. That could cause you problems. Now, are there examples of where in your coaching or your lived experiences, where there have been people that have been affected by being bold, and will this model help them keep their boldness or access it?
Mukhunth Raghavan:Yeah, that's a good question.
Mukhunth Raghavan:I think the way that this framework is couched in this dichotomy between what people are motivated by versus the obstacles they're facing, the challenges to success that they might be perceiving, helps uncover some of those, the clashing forces, right. So I think there is an encouragement to be bold and do the right thing while letting things out of your control kind of play out as they will. You're not trying to challenge existing systems just for the sake of challenging it, but if you're trying to get real work done or make progress, I don't think there should be much of a fear in terms of status getting revoked. Of course, that is coming from a place of relative security, and so I would advise each individual to make that call for themselves with their coach. But at the same time, I think there is a lot of confidence that a coach can provide somebody who's struggling with these kind of two oppositional forces that we are exploring here.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, yeah.
Shankar Subramaniam :Yeah, I would say anecdotally, peculiarly boldness has been rewarded in the US. I would say anecdotally, I'm not saying statistically, but the people I've talked to who have risen very high in the United States and have done the boldest things, they have not been afraid, they've just challenged or, you know, taken the bull by the horns. I don't personally don't know of any cases where the retaliation has been negative and you know they were sent out. That could change. Our climate is changing as we speak. I'm talking about things that happened 10, 15 years ago. But I would still say, as Makhunth says, it's a very personal decision. We want the client to act in concordance with their deepest values, and so you know, if security is a huge value, then that is a value.
Shankar Subramaniam :You've got to respect that. So I wouldn't advise a client, as you know well as a coach, to do one or the other, but I would encourage them to come to a decision that they feel comfortable with and they feel their energy is in that direction.
Mukhunth Raghavan:Right, right, and one more thing to touch on here is that a lot of times those folks might not know exactly what their values are or be able to pinpoint those able to pinpoint those. So one thing that this tool and framework helps is that conversation between the coach and the employee to uncover what are those motivating forces, what are the values that underlie these thoughts, especially when you're thinking about a lot of different things, oh my visa status, my work, family back home, my family here, dependents. I think sometimes you get lost in the pool of consciousness that is going on and all the thoughts that might be swimming together. So we are promoting this tool and this framework, this approach, as an opportunity for people to come and kind of let go of those thoughts in a way that helps them identify what are the values that they are really motivated by and what will promote them to its success.
Mukhunth Raghavan:And perhaps those answers could look different from person to person
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, very much so, and the trust and confidentiality space of coaching is the things that you hear are just amazing and an honor to be witness to. Speaking of honors to be witness to, do you have any success stories come to mind of the impact of this work on somebody that you can freely talk about without naming names?
Shankar Subramaniam :So I've had, I think, three very good success stories. In one case, someone grappling with basically moving from an educational space, finishing an accomplishment, looking for the first job and helping that. And the other one was transition from a fairly toxic work environment to a very productive work environment.
Garry Schleifer:Thank goodness, that's a good way to go.
Shankar Subramaniam :Yeah, right. And the third one is someone who's in an excellent work environment but is uncovering the things that are holding them back, particularly the relationship authority and how to own their expertise in a way that they weren't, because of the way they were brought up and the sort of cultural programming that goes into us to always be deferential. Right and now to you know, stand up and speak with your own voice. Yes, I know this stuff, this is what I'm an expert in, and do it in a non-threatening way, but in a way that really allows them to, you know, bloom like a flower. It's like a bud, just opening up and showing all the beauty that they have to offer the gifts that they bring.
Garry Schleifer:So, oh, my goodness, that last one that could apply to all of my clients. Oh, I don't want to seem like I'm bragging. I don't want to seem like it's like it doesn't matter where they're from, where they were born. They're like, right, pretty much all of them. It's interesting, right? Your culture in the U S is about heroes and bravery and boldness and all this, and then we're working with all these people and we get the real story. That's exceptions, not the rule. Yeah, I love it, I love it. Gentlemen, oh my goodness, a fabulous conversation. I could go on and on, but we can't. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article and this conversation?
Shankar Subramaniam :I think for me it would be wonderful if someone is a coach who's listening to this if they would reach out to us and use the assessment tool in their coaching. I hope one thing is that it's at least sensitized coaches to the awareness that people may have these things that they bring to a coaching session. And then, of course, I do have the free offer to three free coaching sessions to whoever wants to pick them up, and that's something I'm happy to offer.
Mukhunth Raghavan:I think just using it.
Shankar Subramaniam :It's my pleasure, yeah, and thank you for the opportunity to reach the audience. So I think anyone who would wants to dig deeper into this can contact Mukhunth or me and we'd be happy to talk more about it. It's all free. The assessment is free. They can download it, use it. Use the follow on questions. We're just looking to connect and help the community as best as we can. And if someone is a client, then I hope that they will see that we, as coaches, and in Choice Magazine, are very thoughtful about what we're trying to do here and we want to deliver the best coaching, improve our practices and looking for the best outcomes for our clients.
Garry Schleifer:Yeah, thank you.
Mukhunth Raghavan:Right right, and we'd love feedback on the tool if coaches out there are using it and would like to give us some thoughts. We're always looking to continually improve. The tool is based on standard psychometric practices, but if there's an opportunity to collect data or if folks want to send anonymized data our way, we'd love to explore this further and then maybe even go for improved versions as time goes.
Garry Schleifer:Research never stops. Gentlemen, what's the best way to reach you?
Shankar Subramaniam :email is drshankar@drsha nkarcoach. com.
Garry Schleifer:Excellent. Mukhunth, same way to get a hold of you?
Mukhunth Raghavan:Yes, you can reach me by email at mukhunth@ gmail. com. M-U-K-H-U-N-T-H at gmail or find me on LinkedIn.
Garry Schleifer:Gentlemen, thank you so much for doing this, for your contribution to the world, to the support of immigrants and, I'm sure, so many other things based on your background. Thank you, thank you and thank you for being here and for writing for choice. We really appreciate it.
Mukhunth Raghavan:Thank you, Garry for inviting us
Shankar Subramaniam :Thank you, Garry.
Garry Schleifer:That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here in the first place. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine and you're watching this by video, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right-hand corner of the screen or, if you're listening, go to choice-online. com and click the Sign Up Now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.