choice Magazine

Episode 150: Breaking Barriers in Coaching with guest, Pamela Larde

• Garry Schleifer

Share episode

Send us a text

What happens when systemic barriers persist in an industry built on personal growth and transformation? Dr. Pamela Larde pulls back the curtain on coaching's diversity challenges and shares a groundbreaking approach to creating change.

The coaching profession prides itself on fostering human potential, yet faces the same diversity and inclusion hurdles as many industries. Dr. Larde, creator of the first ICF-accredited Black-owned coach training school and director at the Institute of Coaching, shares findings from the pioneering Horizons program that's reimagining coach education through an equity lens.

One powerful revelation centers on "racialized emotional labor" – the invisible psychological burden carried by people of color navigating predominantly white spaces. This concept, rooted in research on how racial stress creates physical health challenges, illuminates why traditional coaching programs may unintentionally tax diverse participants. The most surprising discovery? Students wanted more diversity content integrated throughout their training, not less.

Despite growing backlash against DEI initiatives in the United States, Dr. Larde observes coaching organizations largely maintaining their commitment to inclusion, though with strategic adaptations. For prospective coach trainees seeking inclusive environments, she recommends examining a school's stated values, faculty diversity, and student testimonials about psychological safety. "Schools for which this is a value say it out loud – you don't have to dig very hard to find it."

The conversation explores innovative approaches like reverse mentoring, where newer coaches share fresh perspectives with seasoned practitioners. Dr. Larde, who researches both joy and justice, embodies how these seemingly opposite focuses intersect in powerful ways.

Whether you're a coach trainer, practicing coach, or considering coach certification, this episode offers crucial insights on creating truly inclusive coaching spaces. Connect with Dr. Larde through the Academy of Creative Coaching or on LinkedIn to continue the conversation about transforming the coaching profession.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Pamela Larde here.

Free Gift from Dr. Larde - The Practice of Joy: Creating Revolutionary Change in Our Personal and Professional Lives – Digital Workbook

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest article, have \a chat with this brilliant author and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives, remembering that this is your go-to resource for all things coaching. But for now, let's dive in. In today's episode, I'm speaking with author Dr. Pamela Larde, who is the co-author of an article in our latest issue Coaching Anti-racism and the Backlash Against DEI. The article is entitled Breaking Through ~ Addressing Systemic Barriers in the Coaching Industry. Dr. Larde is director of the Institute of Coaching, an author, a professor at Anderson University and a member of the Ezra Science Board, and the creator of the first ever what, Pamela?

Pamela Larde:

CF accredited coach training program owned by a black educator, for the first black owned coach training school that's accredited by the ICF in 2013.

Garry Schleifer:

Wow, congratulations, well done yeah. Yeah,

Pamela Larde:

And is the Academy of Creative Coaching. I should say what it is right?

Garry Schleifer:

Oh yeah, exactly, and academyofcreativecoaching. com.

Pamela Larde:

Yes, that is exactly it.

Garry Schleifer:

And you get a chance to tell us again before we leave. So those of you who are grabbing a pen to try and get this, you know, we'll have that for you. Thank you so much for joining us today. So, okay, how did this all come about? This horizons program? Who had this brilliant idea? And then, what is it?

Pamela Larde:

Yeah, well, so, as you mentioned, I am on the science board for Ezra, which is a digital coaching company based in London, and their objective is really to bring coaching to Fortune 500 companies and allow people.

Garry Schleifer:

Garry holds up his pen for those not watching.

Garry Schleifer:

I'm also a coach with Ezra.

Pamela Larde:

Okay, so great, yes, and so it's twofold, because it offers coaching to leaders and organizations across the world, but they also now are creating coaches by offering coach training so that they can sort of create access to coaching, greater access, but also, of course, to enhance their own bench of coaches that do go out into the communities and the Ezra coaches do great work. So that the work, this study comes out of the training part of Ezra's work, which is, let's create an accredited coaching training school so that we can be a part of also creating access to coaching for those who want to become professional coaches.

Garry Schleifer:

Right, well, great. Was this your idea, or Jonathan, or who?

Pamela Larde:

This was not my idea, but Jonathan was a part of the creation. So Jonathan Passmore is my co-author in this article and he was part of the creation and envisioning of this Horizon program and, unfortunately, I wish I can give credit to the person who really got it started, because you know she's been involved with even reading the article and saying, yes, this is great, because even you know, even the study was very honest. I mean, it didn't just, it wasn't just done to give Horizon a glowing review, but also how can we improve, how can we grow and enhance what we're doing in coach education?

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, and not just coach education. I'm sure this is going to be applied to many areas and many realms of training and education. I have to speak to this one because I'd never heard about this before, so I want to know more about it. You wrote in the article Horizon Research was the concept of racialized emotional labor. I did not know what that meant. Tell us about that.

Pamela Larde:

This is sort of rooted in works like researchers like Geronimo.

Pamela Larde:

She identified this concept called weathering and she specifically applied it to Black women who were experiencing racial stress and tension at work and what that does to us physically and psychologically. It just weathers away at us and it actually creates health challenges because of the ongoing impact of racism.

Pamela Larde:

So that concept of emotional labor is rooted in works such as that and the emotional labor is sort of that subtle stress, tension, that load that we carry when we are one of the few in the room and perhaps something is said or there's a microaggression, whether it's intentional or not, because a lot of these things also come from implicit biases. We don't even realize some of the biases we carry. So if something in the room is said, there's that burden of do I say something? Do I just stay quiet? I'm tired. I don't want to be the advocate, I don't want to be the voice today, but it often falls on our shoulders to be that person to educate the rest. And that's the emotional labor, because there is a lot of deep emotions associated, of course, with experiencing any of the isms- sexism, racism and so forth- and to have to already deal with that tension and that stress, but then to also have to sort of rise out of that to say something, to be proactive, that's the emotional labor.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. We're always happy to learn new things, especially in the areas of diversity, equity, inclusion, so thank you very much for that. And again, it's lived experiences that I don't have that always help inform me personally. That's my journey of awareness and learning, so thank you. Speaking of learning, I'm just quoting so much from this amazing article and I hope everyone listening gets a chance to read it. You have a lot of advice for coach training organizations, one in particular. "HR professionals, training organizations, and coaching supervisors must actively consider how their programs address emotional labor. This includes integrating discussions around race, bias and inclusion into coach training curricula, providing structured reflection spaces for trainees to process their experiences and equipping supervisors with the skills to support diverse trainees effectively. That's a lot of stuff. How are we doing? You've done this Horizons research a while ago. You've written a paper I'm sure. You've written for us. Are we seeing any shifts?

Pamela Larde:

Oh goodness, we are seeing shifts in the opposite directions. You know there's, you know, as you know, there's a lot of pressure here in the United States to stifle any of those efforts, and those efforts have been stifled in a lot of ways, and so organizations have literally been afraid to engage in this kind of work, have changed the names of programs that were intended to be for particular populations.

Pamela Larde:

So, for example, if it is those ERGs, those particular groups that are meant to be support for maybe women in engineering or whatever that is, have been sort of put to rest. In many organizations, we can't have those anymore.

Pamela Larde:

Those groups have to be for everyone, and so I'm seeing shifts in the other direction. But what I'm also seeing are people who are sort of double down. You know, doubling down and saying no, we're going to continue this work and we're going to find ways to continue this work. So it's interesting because we get to see who is saying no, we're going to do this work anyway and we're not going to be silenced. And people are coming up with creative ways of doing that. So I'm seeing a shift in that there is more conversation, but what's happening is the conversations are. We're seeing those who very strongly oppose it have more platform and have more of voice too for their opposition, and so those who have always spoken out are having to find ways to navigate around that pushback.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, well, you know to your point, I have seen a lot of emails. I keep in touch with what's going on in the coaching profession, obviously, and a lot of people are like not batting an eye, in fact doubling down on their efforts. So that's why I'm just wondering can you separate other learning institutions from the coaching institution? Can we see that we're at least maintaining ground, if not gaining ground, versus other entities like ERGs and things like that?

Pamela Larde:

I think that's one of the benefits of the coaching industry is is we're not necessarily tied to an entity that has the power to to silence us. And so in the circles that I run, we are doing, we're moving forward and we're doing what we need to do from a coaching standpoint. And sure there are, you know, there's impact in that organizations that might have sought out coaching might be, I don't know, government run and having to abide by some of these restrictions, so it might hinder those relationships and those connections in that sense. But the coaching entities themselves, I don't see that they have necessarily stopped what they're doing unless they're tied to a government entity or an entity that's facing that threat. Independently speaking,

Garry Schleifer:

Well unfortunate, but as long as we're not losing ground and we're here today to make a point and keep the ground moving in the right direction right.

Pamela Larde:

Yeah, and I think that's just one of the things that the opening of the article says is that you know, coach training is something or just coaching in general is something that benefits industries across the board, and so one of the commenters on my page was saying that everybody should have access to coaching and coach training because of the emotional intelligence skills and some of the other things that is just integrated into coaching, whether you're the coach yourself or somebody who is receiving the coaching.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, yeah, no kidding. Pamela, what's the biggest surprise out of the whole research in Horizons?

Pamela Larde:

I think the biggest surprise was how much more the students wanted diversity, equity and inclusion concepts integrated into the curriculum more from beginning to end. And I think when we first develop programs like this, we don't really know how much people want. We don't know what is too much, we don't know if it's you know how it will be received, and so it was a pleasant surprise to me that the participants were you know we want more, we want more, and so it's always a challenge. Like, okay, well, let's rework or build this curriculum, you know, in a more robust way as it pertains to diversity. But I love the challenge. I think it's a really wonderful challenge to have.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, no kidding, and pleasantly surprised is a great response. Yeah, it was the words that were coming out. I was hoping that was the case because you know it's needed. And what can Horizon, your program and other programs do to support trainees of color beyond just the curriculum?

Pamela Larde:

You know I really love, so we talk about mentoring programs a lot.

Pamela Larde:

One of the things I've learned as a professor, I learn a lot from my students and their dissertations and their research, is a concept called reverse mentoring, and so it's the idea of you know we talk about, yeah, let's have mentors for coaches, coaches who have been seasoned in the field and we've talked about coaches for coaches as well.

Pamela Larde:

But there is also value in in mentoring, and so what does that look like if we were to be intentional about creating mentoring for coaches? But the concept of reverse mentoring, I think, is powerful and this is one of the things I learned from one of my students, and we might be able to even look at this from the lens of reverse coaching. But what reverse mentoring is, for people who are newer in the field, who are actually mentoring people who are seasoned in the field, and this allows people who are seasoned to learn what are some of the new perspectives and the new trends, what matters to this generation and what can I learn from them and so I think it would be powerful to flip the way the coaching relationship, the mentoring relationship between professionals in a way that also acknowledges the value of what young coaches bring to the table, and young doesn't necessarily mean age, as you know. I mean we have people coming into the profession in their 50s and 60s.

Garry Schleifer:

So yeah, no, well, thank you so much for doing all of that. Key indicators. I know that part of the work of Horizons is creating a space that's fully inclusive and psychologically safe. But how do you know if that's the case in other areas, like, let's say people are looking for a coaching school or a training program?

Pamela Larde:

Yeah, I think it is evident in the values that the school espouses. They're not shy about values of inclusion, humanity. I think that's another really important keyword. But just making sure that you know we are valuing the whole person, that's a really important value for my own Academy of Creative Coaching, valuing the whole person and sometimes, when language gets scrutinized, being able to sort of read between lines, you know, what's really important to the school. What does the diversity of their faculty look like? How is that represented? What does the curriculum prioritize and to what extent is this evident in the curriculum? But what's also really important is how students express, or trainees express, how they feel in the environment. Sometimes it's not a matter of grand gestures but more of a matter of a quiet peace and safety that they have in that environment, and that says a lot. It goes a long way.

Garry Schleifer:

And is that in the form of like testimonials and things like that or reviews?

Pamela Larde:

Because how would you know? Yeah, yes, I mean, but I think it's important for the school to even pay attention to what the experiences are in the classroom and in the learning experience, so it allows those who are on the education side of it to asses the extent to which this is working and so to be really proactive about that and that is something they can use on websites or as they talk to prospective students about how valuable this experience has been from the standpoint of being at peace, not having the emotional labor without it being acknowledged, because the emotional labor might exist anyway. But does the school recognize that? What do they do to support that? And those are the kinds of conversations that I think if you are looking for a school that you want to engage in.

Garry Schleifer:

It sounds like the trainee needs a bit of time to prepare, to look for what it is that helps them feel inclusive, included and psychologically safe.

Pamela Larde:

Yes, and I think that is the due diligence that comes with looking for, you know, where do you want to get your training. I mean, there's a level of due diligence, and some things are more important to people than others. For some people, the diversity aspect doesn't matter at all, and for others it's like no, I absolutely want this to be a part of my experience, and it might not always be comfortable, and that's the thing about diversity is for, you know, for me, as a black woman sitting in a training that might be predominantly white or, you know, not have other people that I can identify with on a demographic level, I might not be the only one who's uncomfortable, because it depends on what everybody else is bringing to the table, and so those conversations are not always meant to be comfortable. They may not even always feel safe, but that's where the facilitator comes in and that's where the school has to have some level of understanding of what it takes to engage in this kind of transformational work, transformative work, I should say.

Garry Schleifer:

Well and without increasing emotional labor of that, one or two odd people in a bigger group, right? And again it just goes back to how do you know before you get there right? So Horizons, or your school, which comes from that place of inclusion and diversity, I guess that would be considered a safe bet for the answers to most of the questions that BIPOC individuals might have.

Pamela Larde:

I think they say it out loud. I think the schools for which this is a value, they say it out loud and you don't have to dig very hard to find it.

Garry Schleifer:

Good, there's a testimony right there. Glad to hear that, glad to hear that. So what's next for the Horizons project?

Pamela Larde:

Well, we're continuing on. I think we are in cohort three or four now. This study was based on cohort one, and so we take what we learn, we plot, we apply, we build, and I love the work that's being done there, and so it's just a matter of continuing to spread the word. You know, it is always challenging, even though they're a London based organization. It's always challenging when we have to think about language and because, you know, some of the things that are happening here in the United States have an impact globally. And so having to be strategic around some of those the pushback against DEI, which is, I guess, in the title of the article, but having to be strategic about that pushback, I think, is part of the future, which is unfortunate, but it is a reality. And so how do we make sure that we are strategic and that we can continue forward with the work that we're doing?

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Well, thank you for doing the work that you've done, for doing the work that you're doing and the work that you're going to do even more of. And thank you again, and I hope that you will at some point come back with an update on all of this and let our listeners know how much ground we've made forward in this movement.

Pamela Larde:

Yes, we are pushing forward.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, thank you, Pamela. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation?

Pamela Larde:

I would love for our audience to be much more aware. You know it's easy to appeal to the people who are already interested in this topic, so I really encourage those who really haven't taken the time to dive into some of these challenges to just, you know, pay attention, to listen a little bit more, to dive in and figure out where you can fit in as a part of the solution, especially as a coach. There is so much room for coaches to become aware, and we might not be fully competent in these areas, but let's work towards getting better. Let's work towards at least hearing the stories of others. I think that's gonna be really important in this era.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, no kidding. Well, I'm glad you're here to tell your story. Where can people find out more about the Horizons program?

Pamela Larde:

If you follow Ezra, Ezra has a LinkedIn profile and then also the website, and if you go to education and training, you'll be able to learn more about the Horizon program there.

Garry Schleifer:

Awesome, and where can people go to learn more about your coaching school?

Pamela Larde:

My coaching school is Academy of Creative Coaching, and you can find that at academyofcreativecoaching. com. Yeah, that's probably the easiest.

Garry Schleifer:

And the best way to reach you in particular.

Pamela Larde:

Well, and one of the things I didn't mention is that I am a joy researcher, which might seem like whoa, so she's studying the hardships of emotional labor and joy. Well, they come together, they pull together in an interesting way, and so you can find out more about me, that work on joy, justice and liberation, on my website at drpamelalarde. com, and so it's just drpamelalarde. com.

Garry Schleifer:

Awesome and they can connect with you there.

Pamela Larde:

Yes, and LinkedIn is probably the best way to reach me because I'm always there.

Garry Schleifer:

Always there. I'm not always there. I need to do better. There at least once a week.

Pamela Larde:

My new favorite, my new favorite platform. I don't know what happened.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, thank you again so much, Pamela, for your part, a role in this and changing the world.

Pamela Larde:

Thank you for having me and for all that you do.

Garry Schleifer:

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that brought you here. If you're watching this podcast and you're not a subscriber to choice, you can get a free digital issue. To check it out by scanning the QR code in the top right-hand corner, right over my shoulder and if you're listening, go to choice-online. com cand and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.