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Episode 157: The Intersection of Coaching Supervision and Social Justice with guest, DeBorah "Sunni" Smith

• Garry Schleifer

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Coaching supervision and social justice might seem like separate domains, but they share a powerful intersection that can transform coaching practice. DeBorah "Sunni" Smith reveals how these complementary frameworks create space for deeper awareness, innovation, and meaningful change.

Supervision offers coaches a reflective container—often called a "safe space"—though Sunni challenges us to recognize that safety is inherently subjective. What feels safe for one person may feel threatening to another based on their lived experience. This recognition aligns perfectly with social justice principles focused on equity and equal rights. Both domains honor diverse perspectives and seek to create environments where authentic dialogue can flourish.

What's particularly fascinating is how these principles appear in everyday coaching. When Sunni asks coaches to share cases where social justice doesn't apply, she finds they can't—because elements of power, communication, and equity appear in virtually every coaching conversation. Our bodies signal discomfort before our conscious minds register it, giving us valuable information about potential conflicts or misunderstandings. As coaches, we're trained to notice these subtle shifts, the same awareness that helps navigate social justice conversations.

"We bring so much as individuals to situations," Sunni explains. "Coaching supervision provides structure and process, whereas social justice brings purpose and passion." Together, they adjust how we see the world—like corrective lenses for our professional vision. This integration helps coaches recognize that while global issues may seem overwhelming, we can impact the conversations at our dinner tables, in our organizations, and communities. By facilitating win-win discussions rather than win-lose debates, coaches contribute to a more equitable society—one conversation at a time.

Ready to explore this intersection further? Join organizations like Coaching for Social Justice for their free bi-monthly dialogues, or connect directly with Sunni to continue this important conversation. The growth happens in the discomfort—are you ready to lean in?

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about DeBorah "Sunni" Smith here.

Receive a 30-minute Complimentary Discovery Coaching Session with Sunni via scheduling at enegaged@cassavacoaching.com. Please indicate Choice Comp Session in the subject line and Ana will schedule a time. 

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author behind it and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques and make a real difference in our clients' lives. Remember, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching. But for now, let's dive in.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's episode I'm speaking with coach DeBorah "Sunny Smith, who is the author of an article in our latest issue Coaching, anti-racism and the Backlash Against DEI. Her article is entitled Coaching Supervision and Social Justice the Intersection and the Advantage. A little bit about Deborah or Sunny she is a PCC. She has an MS, a JD, an LLM and just a broad background with various professional experience, including business, education, healthcare law, entertainment and the arts. Early in her coaching career she earned certifications in the Team Advantage Coaching, emotional Intelligence 2.0, and Conversational Intelligence. Today, her coaching style integrates further certification in Liberatory Coaching, south African Mbuntu coaching and coaching supervision with a capital V in the middle. Sunny also leads coaching expertise to the Center for Creative Leadership, the Ariel Group, a-plan Coaching, coaching for Social Justice and Creating Futures that Work, including its science-based, arts-based, experimental leadership system. Thank you so much for joining me today. Don't know how you fit it in with everything you do, but we're glad you're here and we're thrilled that you wrote for us. Thanks so much, sunny.

Sunni Smith:

You're welcome and thank you. It's part of being of service. That's why I became a coach.

Garry Schleifer:

Well said, well said. So why'd you decide to write at this time? I know the topic is intriguing and it sounds like it matched with the theme of the issue.

Garry Schleifer:

You've written for us before too, so thank you for coming back.

Sunni Smith:

Well, I do read the magazine, and you definitely have a real special place in my literature review on a regular basis.

Garry Schleifer:

Thank you. Well, you know, one of the things was I was rereading the article that might would be of interest to our listeners is the definition of supervision and the definition of social justice, and how would you define?

Garry Schleifer:

I know you talked about it in the article, but for our listeners.

Sunni Smith:

Well, you know you hear a lot about this concept of safe space, and a lot of organizations, including ICF, the European Organization for Coaching regard supervision as providing a safe space for reflective discussion and dialogue to support the coaches' developmental and professional practice, to refine and to enhance that, which is one of the reasons why I came into supervision itself.

Sunni Smith:

However, when you look to actually define safe space, that's an individual, very particularly personal often, definition. What's safe for you, Garry, may not feel safe for me, and it's very challenging not impossible but challenging to provide a container that is absolutely safe for everyone because we all have such different lived experiences. And that's one of the things that I love about supervision, because it sort of takes the top off of coaching in the sense that it allows for a lot more creativity, adjustment to the interaction of a group, especially group supervision situation. Social justice means the equity in opportunity for everyone and it focuses also on equal rights, and that also is a pretty individual interpretation. So that's one of the reasons why I came to this thought that the two intersected so well together. It's integrating systemic power and also integrating group dynamics and we're looking to achieve a balance in well-being and in fulfillment in coaching, and so those two things were very, very parallel.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Well, thank you, and thank you for just kind of going through that with us again. I was fortunate enough to be in a group supervision last year and it was an amazing experience, and what I would add on that, I'm sure you know this as well, is that the contribution of your peers and the examples of what their personal journey is in the safe space or supervision realm, was great.

Sunni Smith:

Exactly. Exactly, and I think that's one of the things that coaches often in terms of supervision.

Sunni Smith:

There are lots of people in the profession who really aren't familiar with supervision. I'm so happy to hear that you had that experience, because the group dynamics also mirror social dynamics. This goes on in almost every situation, whether it's an organization or even a one-on-one coaching situation. I've coached other people who, for me personally and professionally, I felt I needed to give a lot of deference to, and that creates a whole different dynamic. But I think the place where we can dispel all of this hierarchy is in coaching especially, that we can become human beings and not human doers. We're much more who we are rather than what we do. People say that all the time you know, I am a coach, it's what I do, but that's not necessarily who I am, and we like to bring that beingness to the forefront.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, thank you.

Garry Schleifer:

Thank you for that reminder. I'm just thinking of I've kind of lapsed in reminding my clients that they're beings, not doings, so might be a good. See a little bit of supervision happening already. What can I offer that I've seen. So for the listeners. So my experience of supervision is challenges with some clients, never specific. It's about my coaching, not my clients, not my coachees, and that was my experience. And so going through all of that gave me other ideas, reminders, and just sometimes they know you're okay, like just you know that might've been an isolated circumstance or you know, just it just did make me feel very safe. So to your point about a safe space and the personal journey was great.

Sunni Smith:

I think what we're looking for today and people are, you know, inundated with such information coming at you all the time and we're looking for innovation, and this is where innovation really begins, because we have to kind of let go of maybe traditional ways we look to things if we're going to move into a really innovative realm, examining things, discovering things. And again, I think coaching can lead the way in terms of innovation, because that's what we do. We're constantly inquiring, questioning and looking forward, giving forward movement instead of I call it feed forward instead of feedback yeah,

Garry Schleifer:

Fall forward.

Sunni Smith:

Exactly, exactly. So this integration of diverse perspectives, and that's the other reason I thought maybe my article fit into your focus for this particular issue, because we're so wrapped up in what we're hearing in the news and DEI is bad. I mean, I've gone through different iterations professionally where even the word diversity became a dirty word, you know. Now people don't even want to talk about it or say it, and it's really unfortunate because words are so powerful and they shape our world.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, very much. Yes, and certain people's words shape the world, which is kind of why I did this issue the way I did. Bold and just speaking to the elephant in the room. Well, you've spoken a lot about supervision. Why do you spell it with a capital V? What's the difference?

Sunni Smith:

Well, one of the things or the metaphors that I used in the article had to do with sight, and people understand when you need glasses, whether you're nearsighted or farsighted, how it corrects your vision, and that really brought home to me what's really been happening around this concept of difference and diversity.

Sunni Smith:

There's cognitive diversity. There's all kinds of diversity, and to focus only on ethnic or cultural diversity is kind of short-sighted. I mean, we bring so much as individuals to situations, and coaching supervision provides a structure and a process, whereas social justice brings the purpose and the passion, and the two together is an adjustment in how you see the world, how you see everything around us. When I talk to people about joining coaching supervision and the groups that I belong to, they go. Well, you know, I don't know if I have social justice really doesn't come up. You know I said well, you tell me the most recent coaching situation that you've had and, to tell you the truth, no one that I've encountered has been able to bring up a case or a situation that really didn't involve social justice, even if it's an individual challenge, even if it's something, a misunderstanding. That kind of communication and dialogue is the very essence of what we do as coaches.

Garry Schleifer:

Okay, now that that makes me want to dig deeper, obviously being a coach. So when I think of social justice, I unfortunately think of it just as diversity, as you pointed out, ethnicity, obvious things. But now I'm hearing that every one of my calls could have a flavor of social justice in it.

Sunni Smith:

Exactly, exactly.

Sunni Smith:

The essence of it because that's what we're all concerned with now. As coaches, we're all trained to be very aware, am I right? This whole essence of communication, non-verbal behavior, is really at the essence of how we communicate, and if you think about it, you know, even as a coach, there are things that ring to fore for us, that make us uncomfortable. I was reading and I think I don't know if I cited this person in the article, but there's a gentleman who was an ex-FBI agent, his name is Joe Navarro, and he talked about regulating your body and shifting the tone and advocating the highs and lows just in your voice. Coaches are trained to pay attention to very subtle shifts and changes, and so we're dealing with that, constantly being aware and pointing out to the client something changed here, somatically, what are you feeling and what's coming up for you, and those are the kinds of things that are really fundamental to a coach's skill set. I'll put it that way and this is reflective in social justice issues. Whenever there's a conflict or something you don't understand or you're in debate with someone else, if we can tweak and turn that into our own self-regulation and figure out what's going on with us individually, it not only can quell and dispel conflict, it can actually get ahead of it.

Sunni Smith:

Before you even say a word that triggers you, your body is just so intelligent. It starts telling you something is off, something is not comfortable, something isn't right. And I'm telling you. It's amazing how wonderful our, when I studied conversational intelligence, they talk about you have five to six to seven brains in your body. It's not just in the cerebral part, but you have a brain in your heart. We've heard the term gut feeling. You have a brain in your gut. Your body is constantly communicating and thinking for you and we need to pay attention to that and that's why I say, and I point out in the article, just little discomforts can help us get ahead of and be more in tune in communication.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Well, thank you for pointing that out. I'm going to be more aware now. We're doing supervision right now, aren't we.

Sunni Smith:

Absolutely.

Sunni Smith:

So again, you're using those supervision skills in every single session that you have as a coach, whether it's group or individual.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, okay, I have to say I'm still struck by the term social justice and it to me feels, well beyond weighty but serious, and what I'm hearing now is it could be a part of any conversation. Am I making it mean too much? Am I make giving it too much importance as a term?

Sunni Smith:

I won't say too much, and again that's putting judgment into it. We stay away from judgment as coaches but it is putting a different emphasis on it.

Sunni Smith:

I point out in the article throughout history there have been social justice movements that have, you know, come to the fore, whether it's a civil rights movement, whether it has to do with liberation, colonialism, whatever in history and, as a matter of fact, that's going on right now, today, you know, in the news, that's what we hear about constantly. We're bombarded by what's happening globally. So all of these things come together. It's not something that's new to us, but how do we integrate it and bring balance? And that's one of the things that coaches and again you asked about social justice and supervision that coaches, I think, are charged with assisting and supporting others to integrate those things and help make meaning of them, and that comes through dialogue and discussion, which is one of the reasons why I think supervision is such a great tool in terms of helping that.

Sunni Smith:

But, as I said, I mean, come up with something. It could be education, an issue around whether it's, you know, right to life, abortion rights. Those are all social issues and bringing equity and balance and justice to those issues for yourself. It's not just whole society, but society starts with you and the individual. So we contribute to all of that and that's why, on that level, when you sort of deconstruct it in supervision for coaches being skilled at helping others do that is really so important.

Sunni Smith:

I don't know if that answered your question though.

Garry Schleifer:

It lightened the load a little bit. It's reminding me that it's like I know pervasive sounds awful, but it's throughout humanity and through conversation and history. And it's not just a, you know, social rights movement, it's an under, what do you call it? An underlying current of events individually, in group, that are are happening is the feeling, the sense that I'm getting from this conversation.

Sunni Smith:

Yes, because individuals make up organizations. The internal policies and programs make up systems.

Sunni Smith:

So, this ripples out into our society. But often I think your listeners might relate to this, we feel like we don't have any impact on these very large, very traumatic and very impactful issues that are global, that are national. But we do have a chance. We have an opportunity to have an impact on the conversation at the dinner table at Thanks giving. We can make that conversation, that discussion, a win-win rather than a win-lose. See what I'm saying and I really do believe that that ripples out from your nuclear discussion to your group, to your organization, to society and if we practice those things, I think can really make a difference.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, wow, no kidding. So what would be the next step for a coach? Supervision, social justice training or supervision and social justice training?

Sunni Smith:

It depends on the person and I think either one of those routes. Again, if they do get into supervision from a professional standpoint, they're going to encounter social justice issues like they do every day. But I think their awareness will be heightened if they pursue the social justice realm. For instance, Coaching for Social Justice, the organization, we have these bi-monthly open dialogues that are free and open, where people can come for about an hour and discuss issues that are confronting them that they're dealing with. It can be coaches or non-coaches, but we provide that environment, that container to look at. That it's really wonderful.

Sunni Smith:

We have one coming up at the end of August. As a matter of fact, you can go on the website and get the information. It's all online and that's one way to just begin to become more comfortable with things that would normally be uncomfortable for you to talk about and also just be informed, share other lived experiences that other people have had and want to talk about. And it's amazing the kinds of things we break down into small groups for about 20, 30 minutes, but it's wonderful. People from all over the globe who come to these dialogue and discussions and they're ongoing again to shift that reflective practice to a place where it doesn't have as much tension.

Sunni Smith:

I think in the article I developed a continuum of discomfort and just talking with you today I mean being on the podcast is something I don't do every day, so it provides a challenge for me and a certain degree of difference and discomfort. But the more we move or lean into that, the more comfortable we do become and we're able to self-regulate all of the input that we're getting constantly and I think that that makes a big difference, just practicing those skills, especially for coaches. If not, you know everyone.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, no, good reminder. Thank you very much.

Sunni Smith:

Well, you know, discomfort is where the growth happens.

Garry Schleifer:

Exactly. Well, thank you. You've mentioned a lot of stuff that coaching for socialjustice. com. Is that the website?

Sunni Smith:

Yes.

Garry Schleifer:

Okay, and anything else you'd like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation.

Sunni Smith:

Well, you know, keep looking forward. um. I am volunteering now, during . You um you The um Creating the Futures creating futures Work that Work and I'm working as a coach pro bono for individuals who have been affected by the recent downsizing and changes in, not directly, government positions but the ancillary positions. People have lost their jobs all over the country, not just Washington DC, and so we're providing coaching services for those people in a very innovative environment for about six weeks to help them recenter, to help them refocus and plan their next steps. It's Discovering called What's discovering Next what's next, coaches uh, in other environments are doing very similar things providing coaches for people who are dealing with extreme change. So that's um for people to know um gift.

Garry Schleifer:

uh. Where people go to find more information?

Sunni Smith:

Creating Futures That Work. com and it's online, and underneath that or within that, you'll see the Discovering What's Next.

Garry Schleifer:

Awesome.

Garry Schleifer:

Thank you for directing us on that. If people want to get a hold of you, what's the best way to reach you, Sunni?

Sunni Smith:

You had asked me and I'd like to provide a complimentary coaching or just dialogue discussion with people. They can go to engaged@ cassava coaching. com and in the subject just put "choice podcast." Then I know where you came from, Garry's group.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, thank you very much, very generous of you. Appreciate it. I'm sure a lot of people will have more questions about social justice and supervision and the experiences there, and maybe just to connect with you because of your experience and your knowledge in this realm. So thank you very much and thank you for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. That's it for our listeners. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app. Usually, probably the one that got you here is, I like to say, Spotify, A pple, whatever. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine, you can sign up for a free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right-hand corner. If you're not watching but listening, go to choice-online. com and click the Sign Up Now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.