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Episode 172: Joy At Work, Results That Last with guest, Marissa Levin

• Garry Schleifer

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What if joy isn’t a perk but the operating system of high performance? We sit down with visionary leader and five-time entrepreneur Marissa Levin to unpack why joy—grounded in psychological safety and clear structure—creates cultures where people do their best work and stay longer. No fluff here: we connect joy to engagement, retention, and real business results, while sharing practical steps leaders can take this week.

Marissa introduces her joyful leadership model, built around the symbolism of the lotus: growth through the mud, resilience in the storm, and the softening of ego. We break down the six petals—principles, process, perspective, presence, people, and play—and show how each petal translates into daily leadership moves. From clarifying values and mission to eliminating chaos with clean processes, from widening your lens to being intentional about your energy, the model offers a roadmap any leader can use to reduce friction and unlock creativity.

We also tackle skepticism head-on. Drawing on research around psychological safety and gratitude, Marissa explains how safety becomes the gateway to joy, and how joy fuels sustained performance. You’ll hear concrete stories from remote teams, a powerful “soul behind the role” lens for seeing your people, and a simple joy audit you can run on yourself before you try to shift your culture. Expect fresh language you can take into the boardroom and immediate actions that move joy from “woo-woo” to “must do.”

If you lead a team, coach executives, or simply want work to feel alive again, this conversation will equip you with tools to align purpose and paycheck, spark innovation with play, and build the kind of culture that holds steady under pressure. Listen, take notes, and tell us: where will you plant the first petal today? Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review to help more leaders discover joyful leadership.

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Marissa here. 

Marissa has graciously provided our listeners with her PDF of The Art of Joyful Living and Leading. 

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/


Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into this latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author who wrote it, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world.

Garry Schleifer:

When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and what we all love to do as coaches, make a real difference in our clients' lives. Remember, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching. But for now, let's dive into this episode.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's episode, I'm speaking with visionary leader Marissa Levin, who is the author of an article in our latest issue, Coaching to Unlock Joy. Her article is entitled Elevating Joy in Leadership and Life: Coaching from Survival to Thriving through Intentionally Joyful Leadership. A little bit about Marissa. She holds an MA, an HRD, and an OD, and as mentioned, is a visionary leader dedicated to transforming how we experience work through joy. In 35 years of elevating organizations and coaching thousands of leaders, she discovered that sustainable high performance requires genuine fulfillment, not just competence. As a five-time entrepreneur who grew information experts to $13 million while pioneering cultures of responsible flexibility, Marissa learned firsthand that success without joy is sophisticated suffering and she writes about that in her article. Through decades of creating cultures that empower employees to find joy in their work, she developed her groundbreaking joyful leadership model, also in the article. Now Chief HR and Culture Officer at NSLS, her lifetime legacy mission continues. Here it is, everyone, listen carefully. Empowering a billion people to live intentionally joyful lives. And I think that bears repeating. Empowering a billion people, a billion, okay? One ninth of the population to live intentionally joyful lives. No problem. If you ever met Marissa, you know she's gonna do this. Thanks so much for joining me today. So are you tracking? Have you got a counter?

Marissa Levin:

No, and I get asked that a lot, right? So for me, it really is about the butterfly effect, the ripple effect. So this podcast will hopefully inspire others to truly step into a more joyful existence and they will take some of their lessons and their energy, right? Energy is contagious. So they will take some of their transformed energy and they will bring it to their people, to their friends, to their family, and it will continue to cascade. So it really is about the butterfly effect.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Well, someday you're gonna have to do some sort of counter because you keep getting asked, right? It's like, how will you know when you've reached success?

Marissa Levin:

So when I fill a stadium to talk about joyful life, how to build your best life, I will dare right there, I will have tens or 20, 20s and thousands of people.

Garry Schleifer:

When did you book a stadium for?

Marissa Levin:

I haven't yet.

Garry Schleifer:

A friend of mine says, book the stadium first, and then you go right now.

Marissa Levin:

Yeah, but I am a manifestor, as you know.

Garry Schleifer:

You are

Marissa Levin:

Yeah, I now have spoken it into existence.

Garry Schleifer:

Yes. Well, and I want to thank you publicly for your support as my co-lead for this issue. It wouldn't be the amazing issue it is without your help. So I'm hoping that I can contribute through our audience to your billion plus people living intentionally joyful lives.

Marissa Levin:

It was a joy to do it. I mean, to just I could feel the energy from all of the authors and just I could feel it come alive on the page. So I'm grateful, Garry, for the trust and the opportunity to be able to support you.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, you're so easy to work with. Come on. It was a joy. A joy. A joy. Well, I would normally ask my authors what inspired you to write for this, but never mind. The woman I'm speaking to today is joy. So let's just leave it at that and let's get into some of the things that I want to ask about. Like Marissa, I've read the article numerous times. You know, I read it when it came in. You asked me to read it before. Drafts, I've proofread it. Oh my gosh, I was going through that and I'm working on a PDF one, highlighting, highlighting. Oh, I want to talk about this. Oh, I want to talk about this. And I'm like, okay, you gotta stop, Garry. This is too much. So for our listeners, if you haven't had a chance to read the article, please, please, please take the opportunity to read this and of course to read the whole issue. It it it's so informative. And it I don't know, you just have to read it and highlight for yourself. Question time beyond the page.

Marissa Levin:

Let's go.

Garry Schleifer:

Let's go. So, you know, and I thought about this when I was first doing this issue and I stopped. But how do you introduce joy to hardworking metrics-focused executives in this chaotic world without it seeming like it sounds woo-woo, right? Like if you mentioned it to another coach, it's fine. But if you mention outside of it, it's kind of like, how do you do that?

Marissa Levin:

You're right. And it's something that I think about uh as I want to bring joyful leadership, the whole joyful leadership framework and model to the world, I have to make sure that it is tied to results, right? Like that that joy leads to higher engagement. We know that higher engagement leads to both top line and bottom line results. But I will tell you that it's something that I grapple with, right? To make sure that I am not alienated or shut down. I know that I've got a 35-year track record and my reputation is something, and my credibility is something that opens doors. And I'm also very cognizant and mindful that many people have not made the bridge and the connection between joy and productivity. So to answer your question, you know, one of the most important threads in my life is psychological safety. And so, you know, this is something that has been brought, Amy Evanson brought it to the world many, many years ago. And we know that cultures that are psychologically safe produce more, achieve more, keep employees more engaged. So safety, psychological safety is that springboard, it's that gateway to joy. So I often when I'll go into an organization as a fractional, or you know, in the case of NSLS, when I was the Chief Culture Officer there full-time, when I go into an organization as a Chief Culture Officer, I am very aware that I'm being brought in to create a container and create an environment where people feel fully seen and heard and safe. And when you have these things in place, then joy will be a natural output. And I have experienced that firsthand as a Chief Culture Officer going in and taking really traumatized and paralyzed direct reports and employees and creating that safety and watching them completely unfold into their potential and their joy. It's a beautiful thing create and to witness.

Garry Schleifer:

Wow, what a great impact and what a great place to be and to see that and experience that. But that also begs the question: how do you help an executive client find joy when they're already overwhelmed and working like crazy hours?

Marissa Levin:

And most are, right? So, you know me, I am very much the intersection, the blend of what I call four intelligences: strategic, spiritual, emotional, and intellectual. Okay. So when I work with executives, because of my track record and my credibility, I am aware that there is an implicit trust. And I have to work with them to open their minds, open their hearts as leaders. When I was running Information Experts, and I had close to 90 employees at the time running that company, I had always looked at myself as the CEO, meaning Chief Emotional Officer, Chief Empathy Officer, and Chief Energy Officer. And the way that I always saw my employees was what I call the soul behind the role. Okay. I do keynotes and I educate leaders to truly see the soul behind the role. So I can physically and, you know, like viscerally remember we had an incredible space in Reston, Virginia. And I would see my people there, and it's just how I go through life, Garry, seeing the soul behind the role. And I would imagine that they were bringing in an invisible baggage of like a suitcase of baggage, because when people come into our workplaces, they're not coming for the title, they're not just coming as someone who is collecting a paycheck. They are bringing everything that they have experienced, all of the good things, all of the drama, all the trauma, all of the energy that they have accumulated over their lives makes them who they are. That is that person that's standing right in front of you. And so my intention when I work with leaders, obviously, is to help them strategically. I mean, I've got that down cold, right? I know how to build a great organization, I know how to build a great culture.

Garry Schleifer:

Been there, done that.

Marissa Levin:

Right. And those are key. But the leader, the leader, him or herself, right? Making sure that they get dialed into who they are. I mean, it's very hard to create a culture or a container of joy if you are miserable, right? Energy is contagious, and this goes for not just in-person offices, but remote culture, hybrid culture. I wrapped up my my engagement with NSLS at the end of October, October 31st. And that was 145 people in a fully remote culture, and that in itself lended a whole nother, it created a whole nother set of opportunities, right? I can say challenges, but I'll say opportunities to make sure that people felt seen and heard and understood and valued. And, you know, after I left, I got oh, some of the most beautiful, heartfelt messages, Garry. And one of them said, you know, when you arrived, it finally felt again since I started that my purpose and my paycheck were aligned.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, I like that. Purpose and paycheck align.

Marissa Levin:

I know, I just got chills, right? So we want to unlock in our people that feeling of safety because when they feel safe, they're gonna give a thousand percent. If they do not feel safe, it's gonna be about making sure that they have to cover themselves. So when I work with leaders, I really stress the connection between the safety and achievement. And Brene Brown and Adam Grant have talked about this a lot in her new book and on her podcast. This is all grounded in science, Garry. I am very aware that there are highly skeptical people out there that focus on safety, focus on joy. You know, I'm not running a sorority, I'm not running a fraternity.

Garry Schleifer:

I can't imagine.

Marissa Levin:

This isn't just a glorified book club. Like, there's a lot of that resistance. And so we have an opportunity as coaches to go in, and that's why I created the model, because I put a lot of structure to the model with things and elements that leaders understand. They understand, and when you look at all of them, it creates joy. So I've been very mindful of not being woo-woo, of not, you know, looking through rose-colored glasses, not taking a Pollyanna approach. I've built, I've bootstrapped a company, I've clawed my company back from bankruptcy. I've lived through multiple administrations as a government contractor. I mean, I have been through the battle, Garry. I really understand how difficult it is to build a successful business. Yeah, and I want to just make sure that our leaders that we work with, you don't have to choose between success and joy, you can have it all. Life is and not or.

Garry Schleifer:

Exactly. Well, I'll quote you from your article: All leaders seek three fundamental experiences. Freedom, described as choosing our response regardless of circumstances, growth, continuous expansion of capabilities, and yes, joy, emotional alignment with purpose. You know, when you say it with such clarity, there's no feeling of woo woo at all. I've been speaking with so many people because of course now what's on my mind all the time is joy, and so everything revolves around joy.

Marissa Levin:

I love that.

Garry Schleifer:

Just speaking with someone this morning who left a high-profile, high-powered global position with amazing perks. And she said it wasn't aligned with my values. And I signed a resignation letter and said I need to go pursue my dreams. Yeah, she's doing it.

Marissa Levin:

So I know a very high-ranking official or ex-official at the State Department that did the same thing in August after a 20, almost 25-year career, because there was a misalignment of values with the current administration. And they're much happier.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, there's a lot of misalignment with values going on right now but that's not what we're talking about today. I do another thing, and this really popped, and yes, I highlighted this too. Joy is not the reward for success, but the foundation upon which sustainable success is built. That's right. And that goes back to what you were saying about the science proves that joy gives results, but it's not pursuit of happiness, it's the incorporation of joy. Tell me more.

Marissa Levin:

Yeah, joy regardless, right?

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, well said.

Marissa Levin:

Joy regardless. We've all heard and you know seen the memes of you know, life is not about I'll be happy when dot dot dot. Right. I'll be happy when I have the car, when I have the beach house, when I hit a certain amount of money, when I get a certain title, right? When I get it, when I arrive at a certain weight, right? Like that's not going to create joy. It's about finding the joy, even in the struggle, because of the struggle, being able to look at things through the lens of gratitude. Gratitude is, you know, I share in the article. I mean, there's so much scientific evidence around the neurological impact and the emotional and mental well-being impact of joy or of gratitude. I do gratitude journal every morning. I have for decades, and my brain is just wired that way. So, regardless of the rugs that are going to be pulled out for me, which I can guarantee you there's gonna be more that come, right? I mean, I'm 58 and I was telling friends the other day at the gym that my number is 112. I expect to be here till 112. Like that's my number. Like I'm like, I'm just putting it out there, 112. So it's the way I look at it is I'm a little more than halfway there, right? So if I have another 50 years to go, 55 years to go, I'm gonna have the rug pulled out from me again. Like, there's no question, right?

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, I mean, you're up to stuff, it's gonna happen, right?

Marissa Levin:

Life hands you all of that so that we can grow. Like every single thing that happens in our life, and I think that this is part of what I bring in so much to my leadership coaching. Every relationship in our life serves as an opportunity for us to know ourselves better. Every relationship is both what I call a mirror and a window. Okay. It is a mirror as a reflection back to us, and it's a window for what can be, right? And every situation in our life serves as an opportunity for us to evolve, whether it's in a personal relationship, whether it's a business relationship. I had something happen this past week where I guess I misunderstood a certain plan that I thought was like kind of etched in stone, that I was looking forward to. And when I talked with this person, you know, they didn't see it the same way. And they had made another plan. And what I did in that moment, Garry, I was not a victim. I didn't feel anyone did anything to me. Okay. I was able to step back and reflect how I responded and how I felt, and I was able to pivot myself very quickly and reframe the whole thing. And you know, because I've been doing this inner work for decades, I am able to pivot very quickly now, right? And know that everyone is just always doing the best they can. Like they just are. And when you know better, you do better. So from a leadership perspective, being able to provide lens, right, this frame for leaders, and they have things thrown at them all day, every day. And one of the worst things that a leader can do is to be in that victim mindset. It's the worst thing. I wrote about this decades ago when I was talking to someone about like I don't have the luxury as a leader for self pity. I don't have it. Like I don't have time to wallow, right? I had to create my own toolbox on how you pivot quickly because leadership is gonna test you. And so my clients, I equip them with not just the skill sets, not just the strategic thinking, but the mindset, the emotional wherewithal, right? The spiritual wherewithal to always look at situations as an opportunity to have more self-awareness. And that's the foundation for joy. Like just to be able to look at everything in life as this beautiful opportunity for growth and transformation and evolution. And when you can look at it that way, that's where the gratitude and that's where the joy comes from.

Garry Schleifer:

And that's where coaches come in.

Marissa Levin:

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Helping people see what's important for themselves, playing with values, what's the meaning, all the things you wrote in the article. Um, do you want to say a few words about your joy model and how that came about and how you're using that?

Marissa Levin:

Yeah. So, you know, it's just the way my brain is wired to create models. Like I mean, when you ask how did it come come about, I don't know how all these models come about. They just come about.

Garry Schleifer:

You're a channel.

Marissa Levin:

I guess, yeah, I'm a channel. Yeah, yeah, I've been told that. For me, so when you look at the model, I want to be mindful. You know, I live very much from a place of intention. The reason I picked the lotus, okay, that's a lotus, and that's important. Okay. The lotus has, and I'm wearing a shirt that has a lotus, and I'm, you know, that was on that was intentional. The lotus has such an important spiritual significance in life. Many things that people don't know. It grows through the mud, and the muddier, the better. Okay. The muddier, the better, the more it will blossom and evolve and shine as a lotus, the muddier it is. And that's how we all are, right? The more mud we grow through, the brighter we're all going to shine. The lotus also is the only plant that when it rains, right, and it's in locations that get a lot of rain, the water just drips off. It does not absorb into the petals at all. And there's a lot of symbolism in there for us to be able to allow things to come down on us and just let it roll off like water rolls off the back of a duck. So there's a lot of spiritual significance of the lotus of being able to withstand the elements, withstand adversity. In the Buddhist tradition, which has always been a, it's for the last 30 years has been very important to my own spiritual practices and growth. In the Buddhist tradition, the lotus also represents the dissolution of the ego. Okay, again, like water comes down and it fully dissolves. So it is about the dissolution of the ego. So I wanted to just point that out that you know, the lotus as the logo, right, and the representation not only of my Marissa International logo and brand, but of the joyful leadership and joyful life models, because I have two different models. It was very intentional. And then the way that I shaped it were with the six petals. And so you've got your principles, right? And those are your values, your mission, your vision. That has to be the foundation for every company. Whenever I work with any organization, it's the first thing I'm going to ask: do you have your values? Do you have your mission? Do you have your vision? Right. And we create those process. I mean, an organization needs to have a well-oiled machine internally. I can't tell you how many times when we were doing marketing and creative services at my first company, you know, companies would ask us to work with them, and they had a beautiful website, and like you go inside the company to work on culture or leadership or whatever it would be. And it was like a mess, right? So it was like you think about opening up a car hood, and you think you're gonna see this glistening engine and you see a mouse running on the wheel, right? Like process, I mean, it is the it is the well-oiled machine. So you've got to have your process that's gonna eliminate your chaos, right? Joy and chaos really can't coexist for a long period of time. Then you have your perspective. Perspective is everything, and so working with leaders to help them expand their perspective, shift their lens, right? When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.

Speaker:

Yeah, okay.

Marissa Levin:

Super important. So perspective. Presence. What is your presence with your people? Right. Like so important to be mindful of that. Okay. And then you have your people, huge, right? I mean, you gotta make sure you have the right people in the right seats on the right bus, both internal and external. You know, I do a lot of work with advisory boards with my book Built to Scale. So, how intentional are you being with your people? And then the last one, Garry, which I know I'm you're not surprised, is play.

Garry Schleifer:

You know there's play in there somewhere.

Marissa Levin:

There's so much play, and that has to be part of culture. I mean, it absolutely creates creativity, it creates innovation, right? We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing. And so those are the six components. And when you can be very intentional and very strategic and mindful about making sure that you've got all of those elements checked off and you're constantly watering them like a garden, like you're nourishing them, right? If you look at them as plants, right, you're nourishing all of them. When you can really hit all six, you're gonna have a really, really joyful culture.

Garry Schleifer:

And a clean engine.

Marissa Levin:

And a clean engine.

Garry Schleifer:

I love it. I love it. I invite all of our uh listeners to read the article and to learn more about the the process, the model rather, and get a little deeper into it and perhaps practice it. Speaking of that, what would you like our audience to do as a result of the article and this conversation?

Marissa Levin:

There are some takeaways in the article and you know, ways that they can kind of do a joy audit for their clients, but I would like them to look inward, right? And really think about like where are they finding their own joy in their life and how can they potentially amplify that? So it starts within. Like I said, it's very hard for a leader to evoke or create a culture of joy if they are not joyful. I mean, there's got to be alignment between the energy of the leader and the energy of the organization. I do a lot of work around conscious leadership, and I always say we cannot, you know, elevate the consciousness of the organization beyond the consciousness of the leader. It's the same thing with joy. If the leader is miserable all day, every day, guess what? Your people are going to feel that. Okay. So if you are a coach who's working with leaders and you want to integrate the joyful leadership model or joy into the work that you do, the most important thing that you do is you do some self-reflection and ask, you know, what energy are you bringing into your client organizations, right? How does joy define you? How does it shape your everyday existence? This is an opportunity for you to really look at your own joy barometer and do a measurement of that and then take that into the into the client organization, right? We always want to role model what we are bringing into our client organizations.

Garry Schleifer:

You have given me some great ideas for my upcoming coaching sessions.

Marissa Levin:

Awesome.

Garry Schleifer:

I love it. I love it. Marissa, again, thank you so much. What's the best way to reach you?

Marissa Levin:

So I'm very active on LinkedIn. It's Marissa h, I play around a lot on Instagram. I've got a pretty big following and I do some fun stuff there. So that's Marissa Levin Official. But for business, I would definitely say Marissa Levin1. My website is Marissa International.com. Marissa@ MarissaInternational.com is my email. And then for anyone who's also interested in the advisory board work, you can go to builtto scale.info. That's totally separate. my LinkedIn, MarissaLevin1, I will connect with everybody that wants to connect. And I do have a newsletter on there called Joyful Life and Leadership. So definitely subscribe to that.

Garry Schleifer:

Wow. It's too bad LinkedIn won't let you have a billion people as followers. Then you'd know.

Marissa Levin:

Well, we don't know if they won't let you. I just don't know if anyone has achieved it. There are many people out there who have millions and millions.

Garry Schleifer:

I remember days when they used to only let you have like 5,000 or something.

Marissa Levin:

I know, I know.

Garry Schleifer:

Let it go, people. All right. Again, thank you so much for being the co-lead for helping curate this amazing issue. I'm thinking it's moving it from woo-woo to must do.

Marissa Levin:

Oh, I love that.

Garry Schleifer:

That just I was just thinking of that. It's like you've so taken the woo-woo out of it practically, joyfully, lovingly. Thank you.

Marissa Levin:

No, thank you. Thank you for seeing the value of it and for creating this platform for not only my voice around joy, but all of the wonderful authors that, you know, are alongside of me in that issue and just to be able to create the conversation. I mean, you've created the container for this. And we're, you know, I can, on behalf of all the authors, we're all grateful.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Well, thank you to you and all of them as well. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe to your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine, you can sign up for a free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right hand corner of this video. If you're listening only, go to choice-online.com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.