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Episode 145: Joy Has A Seat At The Table with guest, Gloria Custodio

• Garry Schleifer

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Joy doesn’t have to wait for a perfect day or a perfect world. We sit down with social leadership coach Gloria Custodio (ICF PCC) to unpack why so many high achievers believe joy belongs to someone else—and how to reclaim it as a practical tool for better thinking, stronger leadership, and sustainable impact. From family scripts and grind culture to burnout and systemic barriers, we map the forces that push joy out of reach, then show how to bring it back with care and rigor.

Gloria introduces the joy spectrum—absent, distant, conditional, tentative, integrated—as a clear, compassionate way to meet clients where they are. You’ll hear how to name joy directly with permission, design small experiments that fit real lives, and keep the work ethical by avoiding toxic positivity and honoring pace. We also dig into radical acceptance as a way to notice catastrophizing without judgment, create breathing room, and choose values-based actions that move people forward.

Along the way, we explore the research linking authentic joy to cognitive flexibility, collaboration, and performance, plus simple attention hygiene to reduce social media’s anxiety spiral. We ground joy in five pillars—meaning, purpose, values, fulfillment, and connection—so it becomes daily practice rather than a reward at the finish line. Expect concrete prompts, human stories, and a coaching stance that centers curiosity and agency.

Ready to turn joy from a buzzword into a leadership advantage? Listen now, try the prompts, and share where you land on the joy spectrum. If this conversation resonates, follow the show, leave a quick review, and pass it to a coach or leader who needs a brighter way forward.

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Gloria here. 

Gloria has created a small companion gift for our podcast audience that builds on the article and this conversation. Click here to find out more:  https://bit.ly/3N1NRf1

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/



Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we'll bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author here, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world.

Garry Schleifer:

When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and most importantly, make a real difference in our clients' lives, and of course ours. Remember, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching. In the meantime, let's dive into the episode.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's episode, I'm speaking again lovingly with social leadership coach Gloria Custodio, who is the author of an article in our latest issue, Coaching to Unlock Joy. Her article is entitled The Right to Joy: Coaching Clients Who've Been Told They Don't Deserve It.

Garry Schleifer:

A little bit about Gloria. She is a PCC, a social leadership coach with a multifaceted career spanning law, business, education, and nonprofit leadership. She's been a federal judicial law clerk, a million-dollar retail business owner, a university instructor, a classroom teacher, and if that's not enough, she was also a school administrator. As an ICF PCC, she's a trained transformational coach, helping leaders navigate complexity, drive impact, and lead with purpose. And no kidding, passionate about equity, inclusion, and social change, she empowers individuals and organizations to grow and thrive on their own terms, of course. Gloria, thank you so much for joining me again. Always a pleasure. Thank you so much for writing for us. I was re-re-re-re-reading it, because of course, by the time we get to these calls, I've read it about five times. But you know, today's lens was more about us as coaches and our clients. So where did you get the inspiration for this article?

Gloria Custodio:

Well, it's great to be back, Garry. It's always fun. It's always fun to spend time with you. The inspiration really is the work that my sister and I do as the social leadership coach is a lot about purpose and in particular joyful purpose and joyful democracy, and basically how joy can serve as fuel and inspiration and support when things, particularly when things feel tough, as this current moment feels tough for a lot of people in general, and also you know, when you're going through difficult times in your own life, so it is looking to joy with intention as a powerful way to be empowered.

Garry Schleifer:

So well, you know, you one of the things that I've learned from this issue when you say joyful purpose is joy is can be present when purpose, meaning, values, that's and fulfillment are present and it's not fleeting, whereas happiness is nice state, but it is not for permanent. In your article, you say, and we're gonna go right to the heart of this, the right to joy, you quoted, I'm quoting you saying "many clients carry this unspoken narrative of not being able to have joy like it belongs to someone else." You say it comes from systemic oppression, inherited family beliefs, cultural expectations, or years of burnout. What are the forces that create that belief and how do you see it showing up in your coaching conversations?

Gloria Custodio:

Well North American culture in general and American culture in particular is very much about the Puritan work ethic, right? You have to grind and you have to always be on and always be available, and that is detrimental to the pursuit of joy. There's also the idea that you know it this very in some religious contexts that the work that we do now will guarantee some joy in the future, in the ever after.

Garry Schleifer:

In the ever after, yes.

Gloria Custodio:

So you postpone because you're sort of investing in the future. In some cultures as well, you know, there's a lot of caretaking and a lot of labor involved, and it's you know, you're not supposed to think about joy because that's selfish. And then some people just say, well, you know, I have done things or they feel guilt or shame, and those sorts of things also. I don't deserve to feel good, which you know is a mindset and a core belief that needs to be addressed, right? Because everybody deserves to feel joy, to feel valued, to feel connected, all those things. Particularly and especially if the mainstream culture is sending the message that you're an outsider or you don't belong. It's important to help ourselves as coaches and as people, but also clients to be able to address that feeling that joy is not for them.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, well, well, there's the basis of the conversation. In your article, you introduced the joy spectrum as a way to meet clients where they are. How does that framework change the way coaches work with joy in practice?

Gloria Custodio:

In practice, I think what is important for me is that we see that joy is not a switch. It's not like a light switch, it doesn't go on and off. It's more like if you're going to go with the light imagery, it's more like a dimmer switch, you know? It changes moment to moment, and depending on what thoughts you're having, what feelings, what circumstances. But what is important for the coach to remember is that you meet the client where they are, and there's not a particular spot. There's not it's not a ladder, it's not, you know.

Garry Schleifer:

It's perpetuated to the next drums.

Gloria Custodio:

Exactly, you know. It's where are you? Slow down. Let's let's explore what your core beliefs are about this, and what you envision possible for you, and that way expand the possibilities. But that's what having frameworks does for me. It's not prescriptive, but it's more of a lens, really, to look at a situation.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Well, and I'll point to our listeners who may or may not have read the article right on the second page of it. There is the basically the spectrum absent, meaning I don't think joy is for me. Distant, I remember joy, but I can't feel it now. Conditional, I can only have joy if everything is okay. Tentative, I'm experimenting with joy, small joy, and integrated joy is a part of my daily life. What's really interesting is as I reread this this morning, but I wish I'd read it yesterday. But I was living it yesterday in a conversation with one of my clients who's also one of our podcast listeners, and she knows who she is. I told her yesterday, I said I was, you know, doing the joy issue, and I said, You are joy, you have purpose, meaning, values, and everything you do supports that you are joy. Of all my clients, I would put her at the top. So I'd say if you're listening, you are integrated. Joy is a part of your daily life, Ms. Listener.

Gloria Custodio:

Did she agree?

Garry Schleifer:

Not only did she agree, she told one of her colleagues who totally agreed and gave her a big hug. She texted me later to tell me that that had happened. But oh yes, she definitely agreed. And of course, she said, You're gonna make me cry again. And I was like, you know, so and you know, that wasn't the intent, but when you authentically can see that in someone, wow, what a great gift it is to acknowledge that as a coach and mirror reflect as we do as coaches. So wow, thank you very much. Okay, okay, so I do want to go back because I think I want more clarity on how do you know when joy is the topic of conversation? Because of course, we're not the agenda, and like I've never had a client bring up, oh, I want to have more joy in my life. How do you introduce that and not be in charge of the agenda?

Gloria Custodio:

I think, and this is at least my coaching approach is very much about presence and listening, and listening for what's under the surface. So it might be that they're talking about the difficulties that they're having, or that they feel overwhelmed, and then sometimes that sparks in me a curiosity, and I tend to follow my curiosities.

Garry Schleifer:

As we coaches do.

Gloria Custodio:

Exactly. So if you put down and ask them something like, if you put down all these burdens that you're carrying that are very heavy, and you were able to pick up joy, what would that look like? And from there, it's sometimes that's where they well, joy, what is that? I don't feel it, I've never felt it, I don't feel that I deserve it, or I can't even imagine it. And then, you know, is that something that you would like to explore what that would feel like, and then they have the choice of going, actually, yes, I have never thought about it before, and then that opens a host of conversations and possibilities that are forward-looking, which after all is what coaching is. Coaching is, you know, we're not being stuck in our present and we are not therapy, we're not looking at the past and trying to fix it. We are looking forward. What do you want and how do we get there? And so that's how I introduce conversations about joy into the coaching space. When it is true, I think I've had maybe one client one time who said, Well, I'm just miserable, I just want to be, and she used happier instead of joyful, and so I also tried to frame it as joy instead of happiness. Because happiness is external, really, depending more on circumstance, and it's more fleeting, whereas joy is foundational. It's also relational, it has to do with your connection to the world and to yourself and your values and all of that, and so it's more sustaining, right?

Garry Schleifer:

Well, and and you say it quite nicely in the article, too, about having how to hold a conversation about joy. You say, Open with permission, ask directly about joy. Your question here is what role does joy play in your life right now? I love what you said, even naming it signals that joy is a legitimate focus for coaching. It's almost like it's you know, it's taboo woo-woo. But when in my interviews and reading the articles and publishing this issue, we found that there's science behind joy. There studies and results that lead leadership with joy or joyful leader, maybe that's a better way to say it, produces more results, there's less absenteeism, etc. etc. So let's bring it on, coaches.

Gloria Custodio:

Yeah, as the social leadership coach, we work with a concept that we coined, it's called a joyful democracy. So it's basically how are you a citizen or a contributing member or an advocate for democracy in a way that is community-driven and sustaining, and as the name says, joyful. What is the joy in working together for the common good? And that's exactly the sort of thing that I think why joy is important, and that the research bears that out, that you have much more access to your emotional and cognitive resources if you can tap into joy, because when you're more centered and more aware of your values and in touch with them, then you're more able to act in a way that that within your sphere of influence to do something positive instead of saying frozen in the what is going on, what is this chaos?

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Well, speaking of that, you also wrote that coaching for joy isn't about bypassing suffering or pushing positivity. Why do you say that?

Gloria Custodio:

I think I've been really interested in the concept of radical acceptance for a while, and because I spent a lot, my natural state is to ruminate and catastrophize. That's my brain goes there, right? So I spent a lot of time when I was younger just trying to root that out. Like you should not think this way, this is not productive, and just being very judgy about it, right? Did it change anything? No, I just felt bad because I catastrophized and then bad

Garry Schleifer:

Because you couldn't figure it out.

Gloria Custodio:

Exactly, right? So finally it dawned on me through reading of research and things like that, that I needed to accept that this is how my brain processes and how my brain wants me to stay safe, right? And once I started just accepting and labeling, oh this is ruminating, oh, this is catastrophizing, then I could actually move beyond it and and accept and not stay in that horrible state of the world is gonna end and we're all gonna die now. Right?

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, you really went dark, okay.

Gloria Custodio:

Yeah, that's my brain is really good at spotting patterns of you know, and going down the rabbit hole of that. So I thank it and acknowledge it, and then I say, okay, but now, right now, what is positive, what is good, what brings us joy? And it is surprisingly effective because then I am available to say, okay, I can call a friend and offer support to their bad situation, or I can make a donation to one of the causes that is doing good in the world.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, nice idea.

Gloria Custodio:

Those those sorts of things that when I am just shut down and worrying and just in my head and not joyful, I can't access because I'm just yeah overwhelmed. So that's how that works in my life and why another reason why I'm interested in joy. Because it gets me out of that loop of negative thinking that that the algorithm in social media feeds.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, doesn't it though? Yes, you know, yeah. So I try to keep away from the social media, I do maybe five minutes every other day, that's it.

Gloria Custodio:

So do I. I limit it and it helps my mental health. But I have also noticed, even with the limits that I have on it, that it still tries to tempt me right into clicking, and if I click it once, then oh my entire feed floods with, and I'm like, no, no, we're not doing that.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, no, yeah, don't ever try to research a walker for your mother or something like a hurry cane, because then all that shows up is walkers and canes for weeks.

Gloria Custodio:

Yes, exactly.

Garry Schleifer:

Keep the joy.

Gloria Custodio:

Yes, exactly. For example, when I'm doing research on current events and things like that, I go to incognito because otherwise, all that I will see in all of my different feeds and is that, and I'm like, no, I just wanted to know this one particular thing. I do not want to be bombarded with everybody else's opinions about it. Thank you.

Garry Schleifer:

No kidding. My goodness, Gloria, you speak about ethical joy work. What does that mean? And what is that meaning for coaches?

Gloria Custodio:

Well, of course, one of the pillars of coaching is that we need to act ethically, and for me that means a little bit like the do no harm, right? You know, tread lightly. Your client trusts you to hold space for them, to be present for them, and not to basically push them in ways that are not helpful for them. So how that shows up to me in working around joy is being very cognizant that there are systemic and cultural and familiar barriers around it that are deep, and also that our own experience might be totally different from the clients. True that so I am aware, for example, that I've done a lot of work on it, that I really believe in it, that I think it's an empowering thing that it's sort of a fuel or an energy, but I also am very aware that you know some clients are not there and are might be quite far away for many reasons. So I don't, I am very conscious of not imposing my own definition of joy or anything else, really. I try very hard on them and to just be curious about what their definition is. Curiosity really is key when you're trying to work ethically, I think, because it it allows you to stay open and and pay attention to the what is important to the other person, what's going on with them and if you don't know, that's perfectly fine. We don't know, ask.

Garry Schleifer:

Right, yeah, exactly. What does joy mean to you? We all have different definitions and different beliefs, like you say in the in the article and in the in the sidebars, yeah.

Gloria Custodio:

So you just stay aware and you also don't push for the easy fix, you don't push them to move beyond like they're suffering too quickly. Sometimes you need to sit with them as they process whatever hard thing they're going through. It might be uncomfortable but it's one of the things of holding space, holding a safe, brave space is being there as they they process the grief. Maybe it's an immigrant who's very scared of ICE for example and you have to sit yes and that is that is not irrational. So you have to I think the ethical duty is to witness that and be there for that and then say okay how can we work with this, how can we accept this and look for ways of moving forward that don't hold you hostage to quite rational things and one of those is joy but it might be not the first thing that you're reach for.

Garry Schleifer:

Well it goes back to what are the root supporters of joy or evident I don't want to say well I won't say causes necessarily but joy go back to what I said earlier joy is present when you're honoring meaning, honoring purpose, values and you're fulfilled so we do all that

Gloria Custodio:

And connection I would add connection.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah there we go. Another one. Oh now I've got five I have to remember. Crazy yes

Gloria Custodio:

Well to me to me connection is always there because you can't ,at least I don't think, that you can be fulfilled in yourself if you're not connected to not just other people but to the web of life to more than humans.

Garry Schleifer:

Yes, exactly, I agree. Meaning, purpose, values, fulfillment and connection. I'll have to write it down and make an acronym of it and then share it. Gloria what would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation.

Gloria Custodio:

I would like everybody to sit you know maybe outside and listen to the birds. There are birds everywhere and think about what is joy for them and how can they bring more joy to not just to themselves but to those around them and then see what happens. Be curious about what comes up. Are you resistant or maybe nothing comes up. Maybe it's a jumble and then sit with that and say okay how can I get closer to joy you know and it's not a switch.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah it's a process. It's a journey. Exactly. Thank you so much Gloria. What's the best way for people to reach you if they want to have more of your joy?

Gloria Custodio:

Well the best way is our home in the internet. So our website is www.social leadershipcoach. com and so that's where you know everything that we do lives.

Garry Schleifer:

Awesome and they can connect with you through there. Social leadershipcoach. com. Awesome. Thank you again so much for joining us again for this Beyond the Page episode. I already know from the future we will see you shortly. Thank you. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here. If you're not a subscriber to choice magazine and you're watching the video you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right hand corner of the screen. If you're listening only go to choice- online.com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery