Episode 190: Coaching With Intent with guest, Jeremy J Lewis

You can feel it when a coaching conversation reaches a crossroads: do we stay with what’s emerging, or do we introduce a tool, challenge an assumption, or name a pattern out loud? Garry Schleifer sits down with executive coach and coaching supervisor Jeremy Lewis to explore how we make those calls with intention, not habit, and why “choice” is a real professional competency in both coaching and coaching supervision.

Jeremy breaks down his research-based NEeDS framework, a practical model for choosing supervision interventions. With “Noticing” at the center, the framework helps supervisors decide whether to move into Exploring, Evaluating, Developing, or Supporting, based on what is happening for the coach, the client, and the broader system. We also dig into a question many coaches wrestle with: how supervision differs from coaching, and why supervisors sometimes have a responsibility to introduce what might be missing, not just follow the supervisee’s agenda.

A key takeaway is developmental fit. Early-career coaches may need more support and quality-checking to ease performance anxiety, while mid-career coaches often want deeper identity and growth work. Advanced practitioners may spend more time in subtle noticing and exploration. We then bring the lesson back to everyday coaching, including how the updated ICF stance on knowledge sharing opens the door to “informing” with care, like offering the Eisenhower Matrix or Parkinson’s Law without telling a client what to do.

If you want a clearer, evidence-based way to build reflective practice and strengthen your coaching supervision, press play, then subscribe, share the episode, and leave a review so more coaches can find it.

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Jeremy here.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Garry Schleifer 0:07

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles, have a chat with this brilliant author today, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and make a real difference in our clients' lives. This is your go-to resource for all things coaching, but for now, let's dive into the podcast. In today's episode, I'm speaking again with executive coach Jeremy Lewis, who's the author of an article on our latest issue, The Power of Choice. His article is entitled Coaching with Intent: How Coaches Can Support Clients in Bringing Greater Awareness to Their Choice Making Process. A little bit about Jeremy. He's an EMCC Accredited Executive Coach, which gives him an EIA appendage. He's an EMCC accredited coaching supervisor, which gives him an ESIA, and an independent researcher. And if that's not enough, he's also an MSC and a TIHR and a partridge and a pear tree, too, right, Jeremy? Well, I'm sure they're all well deserved, so no light on that. A little bit more about him. He's been coaching chief executives and their teams for more than 15 years. He provides supervision for self-employed coaches, internal coaches, and coaching supervisors at all career stages. His peer-reviewed research into coaching supervision has been published in a leading industry journal. His first book, The Coaching Supervision Case Book, Meeting Your Supervisees Needs, as in the framework we're going to talk about today, will be published later this year. Jeremy, welcome back. Thank you for writing for us and for joining us on the podcast again.

Jeremy J. Lewis 2:07

Well, thank you for publishing my article and thank you for having me back on the podcast, Garry.

Garry Schleifer 2:13

It's good to be here. Hey, my pleasure. Now, where was the other article published? In a leading industry journal, was it?

Jeremy J. Lewis 2:19

I've had a couple of papers published by the Oxford Brooks University Journal, which is called the International Journal of Evidence-based coaching and mentoring.

Garry Schleifer 2:27

Wow, that's excellent. Congratulations.

Jeremy J. Lewis 2:30

And it's an open access, so anyone can get access to that. There's not it's not behind a paywall or anything like

Why Intentional Choice Matters

Jeremy J. Lewis 2:35

that. That journal is open access.

Garry Schleifer 2:36

I'm sure a lot of people will be interested

Garry Schleifer 2:38

that in that. Now, what inspired you to write for us at this time?

Jeremy J. Lewis 2:43

So I was I was really inspired by the playfulness of choice Magazine having an edition about choice. I'd been reflecting on intentionality, particularly in my supervision practice and through my research. And I thought, I wonder if I can bring all this together in a playful way that has some resonance for coaching as well as for supervision. So that's what inspired me. I was kind of very conscious I didn't want to conflate supervision and coaching, and the way this article talks about the needs framework, which is from supervision from my own research, and then tries to turn it into something that's useful for coaching. I was kind of a little concerned that I might have conflated the two ideas, but there are many overlaps, and I think I'm sure we can explore a couple of those as we uh as we talk today. Yeah.

Garry Schleifer 3:36

Well, you we've talked about needs, needs, needs. So give us a our remember, some of our listeners haven't read the article yet. So what is the needs framework that's N-E-E-D-S, just like it sounds?

Jeremy J. Lewis 3:50

Yeah, so this is a framework for supervision for intentionally choosing supervision interventions. So when I was studying to become a supervisor, which was seven, eight years ago now, was constantly asking this question well, what's the difference between supervision

The NEeDS Framework Explained

Jeremy J. Lewis 4:10

and coaching? Well, why is this not just coaching the coach? What is it more than that? It struck me that there were intentional choices being made between holding space for the coach to work through what they're reflecting on, but also sharing knowledge and experience. So those are kind of two opposites in some ways, and then there was another opposite of generating new understandings, but then also putting those into practice and and helping the coach move on. And if we plot those onto a two by two matrix, you know, sort of two dimensions, you get four quadrants, and so you're holding space to generate a new understanding or holding space to help them move on, for example. So the research started by interviewing supervisory dyads, supervisor and coach, in the first paper to find out what do supervisors actually do, and it was purely experiential, you know, just tell us what actually happens. We synthesize the the thoughts and realized that they started to drop into this framework. We it that took the research so far, that was in 2023, and then I continued to do the research by iterating a framework. So we had an idea of what the framework might look like, and I ran it through various other interviews with more supervisors and continually refined the framework until it until it didn't need changing anymore. And that was several interviews, and people were saying, No, that's it, you that's that's that's what we do, that's how it works, yeah. And so we ended up, and there was a lot of toing and throwing over the words, and the whole mnemonic needs was totally unintentional. It just popped out, it really did. And in fact, the of exploring was not exploring for for weeks, and I had a restless night, sleepless night, trying to fathom what this word needed to be. And I finally leaned into okay, it's gonna be exploring. And then the next interview I had, the person just said, Oh, look, it spells out needs. And I said, Does it? I hadn't even noticed. N is for noticing and it sits right at the heart of the framework. And this is what somebody else did for you.

Garry Schleifer 6:29

Okay, got it.

Jeremy J. Lewis 6:30

Which underpins , it was a research, you know, it all popped out of the research. It wasn't really anything apart from being a guardian of the framework as it came together. It really came out of the interviews I had. So noticing sits right at the heart, noticing from all sorts of perspectives what's going on, what's happening for the coach, what's happening for the client, what's happening in the system, what's happening right here in the space between us. Then after that, that noticing, we intentionally choose where to intervene. And we could go into exploring or evaluating or developing or supporting. And these are intentional choices to match that framework of saying we're holding space, are we sharing knowledge, we're helping them move on, are we helping to generate a new understanding? And we found that it matched much more readily to the functions of supervision and accorded with all the supervisors and coaches' experience that we'd interviewed. So I'm very proud of it as a framework.

Garry Schleifer 7:38

And for our listeners, that diagram is in the article, and now it makes so much more sense when you gave it, give us a bit more explanation and background into it. And I don't know if this is possible, but is is there are there any examples of how you know that you've this is applied and what was the impact?

Jeremy J. Lewis 8:02

Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things I've noticed, and this what it was uh thought about in the research papers, but it comes out more in the book now that we've engaged 18 supervisors to write cases, okay, reflecting on either the use of needs or on how they did supervision and and then looking back at the needs model and saying, Oh yeah, it does or doesn't fit. This is what we were doing. And what's become apparent is that supervisees, coaches at different stages of their development have different needs. So early coaches, early career coaches suffer sometimes from what I kind of refer to as a bit of performance anxiety.

Garry Schleifer 8:48

Yeah, performative, so why not?

Jeremy J. Lewis 8:51

Well, yeah. So uh, you know, you may come out of coaching school and you've got your kind of got a crib sheet. Here are my questions, here are the things I'm gonna do, and there's this real sense of am I doing it right? Yeah and it turns out that the diagonal across this model from supporting and evaluating is much more relevant because we're supporting people to feel good about what they're doing and and giving them options and choices of how to integrate their learning, but also we're jointly evaluating, well, is that good coaching? Is that best practice? Does it fit with the markers of professional competence, for example? And then as coaches develop and get into mid-career, um, it tends to flip to the other diagonal, which is about exploring and developing. And it's exploring who I am and who I am becoming, and that's that diagonal across the exploring and developing angle. And only when you get to quite advanced practitioners do we withdraw really just into the noticing and exploring space. When and this was the thing that when I when I started doing the research, that a lot of supervision literature assumes that we're in that space. And what

How The Research Built The Model

Jeremy J. Lewis 10:05

my research has found is that coaches at different career stages need more from supervision than just going straight into this, exploring the horizons of their practice, they're not ready for that. And I think then this framework helps supervisors be more intentional about the developmental stage of the coaches that they're supporting.

Garry Schleifer 10:26

Right. was chuckling because it makes so much sense. I mean, you have level one, level two, level three training. You don't give a level one coach a level three training program necessarily, right? Like they're meant for different things, so why not supervision? And then it reminds me, I was one of my last recent coaching supervision experiences was in a group. And I'm just wondering whether the the supervisor had something in mind as far as where each of us were individually as coaches, where we were on our on our uh coaching journey.

Jeremy J. Lewis 11:06

Yeah, quite and mixed levels of experience in a group, supervision group can be very difficult to manage, yeah.

Garry Schleifer 11:14

Well that leads to the question, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but should there be different levels of supervisor, like a level one, level two, level three supervisor? Is that something we have in the works or we should have?

Jeremy J. Lewis 11:32

That's a good question. I don't think I know the answer. I think it's an interesting proposition because curiously, I was talking to some EMCC global colleagues this week, and whether we're talking about you know how easy it is, maybe or to become a supervisor. And perhaps that more coaching experience and qualification would be a good idea before becoming a supervisor. So that might say that once you be get to become a supervisor and you qualify as a supervisor, you've already got enough experience to be somewhere higher up on that scale. But perhaps there's room for people to move into qualified supervision and be a qualified supervisor, but for for novices and for for beginners, where they're doing more of the supporting supervision for performance rather than supervision for growth. Maybe.

Garry Schleifer 12:27

You heard it here, people. You heard it here. Jeremy's gonna take the mantle and go. Well, you're in a position of influence with your research and uh your book and your framework. Who's saying you can't be the one that puts that forward and gets it going? But anyway, not adding to your workload, just throwing out ideas. It just it just made so much sense.

Jeremy J. Lewis 12:48

Yeah. I mean, more research is is I'm definitely up for more research. So we'll have to think about what's next after we get the book

Different Coaches Need Different Supervision

Jeremy J. Lewis 12:55

published.

Garry Schleifer 12:56

And I want to just double check. So we're talking that we're not talking about mentoring, we're talking about supervision, so two different modalities, right? And it's interesting because I always thought that supervision was more coach-like. And so when you add the intentionality, it's almost like the opposite of when you're coaching and that you follow the client's agenda. I mean, you give it some structure, but you follow the client's agenda. Supervision sounds like it's a little more guided. Is that what you're saying here with intentionality?

Jeremy J. Lewis 13:28

I think I think that's a good question, and I think it's about it's about really jointly doing things. So the intention I say is set by the dyad, it's set by the coach and the supervisor together in some ways, but for the supervisor to then enact. Um and for example, um I may have a contract with a supervisee for personal and professional development. So we're in the supervising for growth space. I'm gonna be sharing frameworks. They're gonna say, Oh, I've come across this new methodology I want to try out, and I might know something about it, so we may discuss it in that context. That's perfectly okay in supervision, right? Um but then but then I may notice over a number of sessions we haven't been evaluating anything. So I have an I have a responsibility to raise that and say, I'm noticing that we we're doing a lot of developmental, but we're not really doing much checking in about the quality of the your practice. Right. And and the are you meeting your client contracts? Are you meet are you is it best practice coaching? So there's a sort of um a first mover responsibility to notice where we are on the needs framework and saying we we tend to are we avoiding something. Is that the is it the right thing to do now? And I'm intentionally sharing frameworks and discussing that. If that goes on for too long, what are we missing? What are we what are we intentionally avoiding, perhaps? So there's whilst it's a joint responsibility to agree where we want to go, the supervisor also has their own um professional judgment to bear, to bring to bear, to choose the intentions or to make an observation that certain intentions might not be being met as well. Yeah.

Garry Schleifer 15:18

Okay, I love it. I love it. It brings up another question for me. Is there such a thing as core competencies for supervisors? Or would that overlay with the needs framework?

Jeremy J. Lewis 15:33

The core competences are similar kinds of frameworks to the coaching competences. So it's about managing the contract, it's about being present, it's about fulfilling the functions of supervision. The needs framework aligns more readily to the functions of supervision. So people may have heard of either normative, formative, and restorative, or in Peter Hawkins' terms, qualitative, resourcing, and developmental functions. Well, they map directly or largely, predominantly, shall we say, to the evaluating, developing, and supporting quadrants of needs.

Garry Schleifer 16:10

Okay.

Jeremy J. Lewis 16:11

Whereas the exploring may go, it may be an intervention or it may just be an activity that we do in advance of choosing one of those interventions. So there's a much clearer map to the purpose of supervision and the functions of supervision. So by intentionally choosing an intervention, you know that you are fulfilling the functions.

Garry Schleifer 16:29

Yeah. Wow. And I always find it interesting when I hear stories like this where we're all doing our thing, dot, dot, dot, then somebody does some research and confirms that this thing that we're all doing, we're all kind of doing it the same way. So now here's my reflection from my research on what it is that we're doing. How do we make that this like a some sort of standard? Is that the next step for something like this?

Jeremy J. Lewis 16:56

Well, I just wanted to, I mean, I did the research, I got into the research because I wanted to improve my own practice and improve my own knowledge, but also offer something back to the profession. So the papers are published, they're peer-reviewed, so they're they're out there, they've had lots of reads. I bump into people at networking who say, I love your framework. We're using that in our training now. That's happened. So that's lovely, and that's great because I think there's some value in it, I think there's some worth in it. But I the next step for me was what do I do now? Because I really wanted to get some case studies to broaden and demonstrate that they applied in different scenarios. So we've got neurodivergent coaching examples, we've got group coaching, we've got examples of of supervision at different stages of development, and it's all in these 18 case studies that form half of the book. Now I thought I could do that as a case study research project and put it out there as another paper. I could I might even be able to create a PhD out of it. I don't have a PhD in coaching or supervision, and I thought that might be a nice thing to do. And I reflected on all of that and thought, you know what? I can bypass all of that and just put it out in a book because it's likely to have a better reach. And if we get a good reach, then people might start using it. And that's it for me. It's something that might be useful. It's a bit of giving something back to the profession. It's evidence-based, it's peer-reviewed. We've got some very well-known writers doing some of the case studies too. So I just wanted to get it out there really, and hopefully it's useful.

Garry Schleifer 18:38

Well, you can still go circle back and do a PhD and may have write another book. Well what percentage of and again, not putting

Intentionality And Supervisor Responsibility

Garry Schleifer 18:50

a spot just to roughly give an idea. What percentage of supervisors would you think are using this? Like they didn't even know they're using it, but they're using the needs framework.

Jeremy J. Lewis 19:01

I suspect it's a tiny, tiny, tiny number, to be honest. It's early days, really. I think getting the book out may be helpful. It's encouraging when people you meet people who say they've read paper, you know. I you can see the download stats on the on the paper. So researchers and students and some academics have read it, you know, a few thousand maybe. Whe n the case studies came in, to be honest, there were I think out of the 18 case studies, two of them were people that said, okay, I'm going to use it and write a case having used it. And the rest were post hoc reflection on we've done some supervision, I now want to compare it to this framework. So that gives an indication that it's even, and that's the people I engaged saying, Would you like to write a case study with this framework in mind? So only two out of 18 actually used it before they wrote it.

Garry Schleifer 19:58

And did they come back and say it's similar to what I've been doing anyway?

Jeremy J. Lewis 20:03

They came back by and large and said, What we love about this is it's practical and it's real and it and it totally aligns with with good supervision practice. Yeah. And it's less esoteric and more practical and and based on real experience. And they valued that.

Garry Schleifer 20:22

Yeah. Wow. I can't help but feel that there are, you know, before you did the research, everybody was doing it, and you just revealed what everybody's doing. So most now you've given it a name for people, and maybe they'll connect to it and say, Oh, that's what I do. It's like it's like when I got into coaching, I didn't realize what I was doing when I was running one of my companies, was that I was coaching, and then I heard about coaching in the late 90s, and all of a sudden it was like, Oh, and I know it's a familiar story for a lot of us seasoned coaches, is oh shoot, I was doing that coaching thing back then. Asking questions, being present, letting them, you know, yeah.

Jeremy J. Lewis 21:04

So wow, yeah, I think that's very valid. And there'll be people that don't like some of the words, don't like the way it hangs together, but they are hopefully can see through some of that and recognize the core of the practice in there.

Garry Schleifer 21:15

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure they will. What was your biggest learning from all of your research? What really stuck with you?

Jeremy J. Lewis 21:24

It's probably that what I've talked about there in terms of the different different career stages and that this and that there was a gap. So if you think about because a lot of them supervision literature that's out there, it all comes from therapeutic interventions or counseling, and not and it's been adapted to coaching. And I wanted to start with coaching and say, well, the coaching's kind of different, but you know, if you think in therapy, um arguably a therapist would never therapise their Supervisee. But in coaching supervision, a supervisor would coach their supervisee. So the act that you are supervising is inherently part of the supervisory process, and that's different. So that was one of my kind of start points is saying, well, is it different? Let's have a look at what actually happens. And the bottom half of the needs framework is very much like coaching. It's explore, it's noticing, it's exploring, it's supporting people to make choices and move move on. You could say the bottom half of the framework is coaching, uh, for example. The literature then splits into two parts. There's a lot of what are what I call developmental models in supervision that are aimed at trainee professionals, and then there's supervision proper, if you will, which is this kind of much more joint exploration, systemic exploration of what's really going on, who are you becoming kind of stuff. Who are you really? Personal and professional development. And there's this huge gap in between, like I say, you come out of coaching school having or or credentialing, having had your your score sheet checked off and ticked and saying, Yep, you you are coaching, great. And then if you throw into supervision to support your practice, it's like you suddenly go into this really deep systemic exploration of who you are. There's this huge gap in the middle. So I think it helps it helps fill some of that. Yeah, so that that's probably the biggest learning. And the fact that

Core Competencies And Supervision Functions

Jeremy J. Lewis 23:35

what I would call that is practical wisdom. And that's what people come to supervision for. They don't come for the theory, they don't come to have their have their exam script marked, like coach mentoring, or mentor coaching rather. Yeah, which is more of a kind of checking off, checking off your competency. They come for some practical wisdom. Help me make sense of this, help me turn this into something I can use.

Garry Schleifer 23:59

Yeah, yeah, I've had good experiences in supervision for exactly that. It's not about who you're coaching, it's about how you how you're being as a coach, as a human being, even it doesn't just stay with coaching, right? Because you know, usually I like to say usually what you're doing in your business life, you're doing in your personal life. My clients don't always like it when I make that connection, but they get it eventually. You said earlier you did this for your learning. How has it impacted your your coaching?

Jeremy J. Lewis 24:30

How's it impacted my coaching? I do know I was reflecting on this the other day because I was filling in a questionnaire for someone else's research and they were asking about these sorts of questions, and there's something about supervision that is an acceptance from both parties that mutual learning is happening and that everyone is working at their edge. You know, it's been said that there should be two scared people in supervision, and it's both the supervisor and the supervisor working at their edge. And there's something about then researching that topic which takes it to another level. You know, they say if you really want to know about something, try and tell someone else what about it, try and teach someone about it. And that's what the the research in the book's been about. So the deepening, deepening of reflective practice and and putting it into my both my coaching and my supervision practice um has has probably accelerated my learning more than any training course um I've ever done, I would say.

Garry Schleifer 25:38

So how do you find someone to supervise you, seeing as how you created a framework? Do you have a someone who uses the framework, or do you have someone who doesn't use the framework?

Jeremy J. Lewis 25:49

I have someone who doesn't use the framework. I have the same, I've had the same supervisor since I launched my supervision practice in 2020. I chose him, we'd worked together before, and I liken him to I'm sure your listeners have seen the Iron Man movies with Robert Downey Jr. And he has a heads-up display, yeah, where you can see all sorts of dials and things happening. I liken my supervisor to that because he sees things that only the heads-up display could possibly give him and makes the connections and then makes the right action. So I chose him for his his um pop-up display. I chose him for his intuition and action and and I find him quite awesome.

Garry Schleifer 26:39

Yeah.

Coaching Learns From Supervision

Garry Schleifer 26:40

Well, it was before your research, so he's safe, and you probably brought him along, and he's probably using it, doing it anyway, just by talking about it.

Jeremy J. Lewis 26:49

He does what he does is out is alchemic, I think. It's if I said what framework are you using, he would look at me and go, huh? I'm just here. What makes you think that anything that anything just what makes you think that anything just as both being fully present is is not enough. Wow. Okay, you got the right guy.

Garry Schleifer 27:12

Right guy for you. That's great, Jeremy. What would you like our audience to do as a result of your article and this conversation? I'm gonna put in a plug first to say watch for your book. My second plug is oh my goodness, look at this framework. If you don't have a supervisor, find one that has this or share it with them and see how so we can spread the great word of your work. But I'll let you add in what you'd like them to do.

Jeremy J. Lewis 27:40

Well, what I did in this article was try and borrow from NEEDS framework and create a framework that might be useful for coaching.

Garry Schleifer 27:48

Right.

Jeremy J. Lewis 27:48

And the one thing that's very different is this idea of evaluating. We would never evaluate our our coaches' practice, professional practice. We're not in the same field. It's just not appropriate at all. But I think if we think about what that represents, evaluating represents generating and sharing knowledge, generate a new understanding. And the ICF markers have changed in September to include an acknowledgement that sharing knowledge is okay as part of coaching, which I think is a wonderful thing. In some ways that's catching up with some other professional bodies that maybe were more progressive around that in the past, and so I called it informing, it's the I in e when we do when people read the article, they see that choices is spelt out, which is the playfulness I mentioned earlier.

Garry Schleifer 28:35

Yeah, thank you.

Jeremy J. Lewis 28:36

And informing, and I would encourage people to intentionally share their knowledge in coaching, and they can do that in two ways. One is about giving information, informing, and that could be giving feedback, giving some sector insight if you have some. And there's a very big difference between giving information and telling someone how to use it. I'm not suggesting you tell people how to use it, it's sharing knowledge that you have because it may be useful, right?

Sharing Knowledge Without Taking Over

Jeremy J. Lewis 29:05

And then the other intentional way to share your knowledge is to really cultivate their professional growth, and that might be sharing a framework that might that's more relevant to the coaching question. So I think the example in the article I used was someone say struggling with prioritizing their workload, for example. Fairly simple example, and there's a very famous um model called the Eisenhower matrix. Yes, and if they if you know that matrix and they don't, why wouldn't you share it?

Garry Schleifer 29:33

I do those sort of things. Another great one is Parkinson's law.

Jeremy J. Lewis 29:37

Yeah, exactly.

Garry Schleifer 29:38

I share that one a lot.

Jeremy J. Lewis 29:41

So excuse me. Excuse me, I'm just recovering from a head cold. I would encourage them to experiment with intentionally sharing their knowledge because there's some new avenues for coaches to develop in their in their practice. Yes, the book, absolutely, thank you for the plug. I think we have a link if people want to sign up to be notified when the pre-order is available, and then they can have a discount code if they pre-order through that. We'll let them know. So those two things I would ask them to do.

Garry Schleifer 30:20

Awesome. Well, and thank you very, very much for writing that for your bit of tongue-in-cheek in this around choices. Really it you writing and being on the podcast with us today. What's the best way to reach you, Jeremy?

Jeremy J. Lewis 30:37

Probably finding me on LinkedIn. I'm Jeremy J. Lewis. You have to throw the J into there to find me. I did that originally to be to make to make sure I stood out, but now people can't find me. They go, I can't find him on LinkedIn. Why not? I said, Oh, you need the J. So I'm kind of regretting having done that, but it is what it is. So I'm Jeremy J. Lewis on LinkedIn. JJ.

Garry Schleifer 30:58

Oh, thank you

How To Connect And Wrap Up

Garry Schleifer 31:00

again for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. Much appreciated. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here in the first place. If you're not a subscriber to choice and you're watching this video, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right hand corner of the screen. If you're in audio mode and you're no longer driving or off the treadmill, you can go to choice- online.com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.