Episode 191: Designing For Agency with guest, Eliza Barach

Choice is easy to praise and surprisingly hard to access when stress, habit, and old stories take the wheel. We sit down with cognitive psychologist and ADHD coach Eliza Barach, author of “Designing for Agency: Coaching the Moment of Choice,” to get concrete about what agency really looks like inside real decisions, especially for high-performing people with ADHD who often feel trapped between intention and follow-through. 

We dig into why autonomy is not a luxury in coaching, it is a driver of motivation. Eliza explains how micro-choices can create immediate reward and reduce delay aversion, connecting the dots between intrinsic motivation, dopamine, and the everyday reality of getting started. If big goals keep stalling, we explore how breaking choices into smaller, high-impact steps can rebuild momentum without relying on willpower fantasies. 

From there, we zoom out to the invisible forces that shape decision making. We talk top-down versus bottom-up perception, how internal narratives form from past experiences, and how we can help clients notice patterns without shame. We also go deep on values-based decisions and somatic awareness, including the subtle body signals that warn us when a value is being crossed. Eliza brings in Kahneman’s system one and system two thinking to show how coaching uses effortful reflection to reshape automatic habits over time, one aligned choice at a time. 

If you want more from Eliza, you can find her work at neural-revolution.com. Subscribe, share this with a coach or client who needs more agency, and leave a review so more people can find these practical tools for choice, autonomy, and values-aligned coaching.

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Eliza here.

Free Gift –  A guided coaching workbook to help clients expand perceived choice, reconnect with values, and make more intentional decisions in session or between sessions. Click here for more information.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Garry Schleifer 0:08

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles, have a chat with this brilliant author behind this one, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and make a real difference in our clients' lives. This is your go-to resource for all things coaching. But for now, let's dive in. In today's episode, I'm speaking with cognitive psychologist Eliza Barach, who is the author of an article in our latest issue, The Power of Choice. Her article is entitled Designing for Agency: Coaching the Moment of Choice. A little bit about Eliza. She's a cognitive psychologist, ADHD coach and consultant. She earned her PhD in Cognitive Psychology from SUNY Albany, where she studied, I don't guess you'd say S-U-N-Y, Albany, where she studied attention, memory, language, and decision making. She is especially interested in how these processes operate differently for people with ADHD. She is the founder of Neural Revolution, a team of doctoral level ADHD coaches, and provides one-on-one coaching, consulting, and professional coaching supervision. That's a full bucket. With both lived experience and scientific expertise, she helps high-performing ADHDers understand and leverage their unique brain chemistry to get shit done. I love it. Eliza, thank you for joining us. And thank you for writing for choice.

Eliza Barach 1:58

Yeah, well, thank you again for the opportunity. I'm really excited to chat today.

Why Choice Drives Motivation

Garry Schleifer 2:04

So, what called to you when you saw this particular topic? You've been a subscriber and reader, but what drew you to be a writer?

Eliza Barach 2:12

I think choice is such an important topic in coaching in general and is an amazing starting place for the work itself. So I'm a big proponent of autonomy. And I'd like to say I thought of that, but of course I did not. We can thank self-determination theory for some of that foundational work. And so just as someone with ADHD and working with people with ADHD, autonomy and choice is so fundamental for us. And so when I saw that choice was going to be focusing on that topic, I was like, this is a great opportunity just to talk about how important it is to help people see choice so that they can make decisions that are more in alignment with their lives, but also being able to loop in the neurodivergent community, specifically the ADHDers, and talk about how important it is for that community to also be able to access and recognize choice and kind of take more control of the choices that they're making.

Garry Schleifer 3:13

Yeah, well said. And thank you for sharing your own lived experience part of this conversation. And it's funny because it took 24 years or 20, yeah, 24 years before I realized, oh, choice should have an issue about choice. I'm gonna riff off what you said in the article because I think that was the idea why we chose choice. All from your article, choice then is not simply a feature of the coaching process, it is the process. And I guess way back then, 24 years ago, I was a newly minted coach, and I felt that that was one of the biggest things about coaching was that was having agency or choice so thank you, well said. How has this, you being ADHD, self-described. Thank you. I'm going a little crazy here today, but how has this research helped you personally? Is there anything you'd like to share around that?

Eliza Barach 4:16

Yeah, well, I think personally, and then also being able to share it with my clients who also are ADHD, the importance of autonomy and choice as it relates to motivation, huge. And so understanding that, like my strong need for choice for autonomy, understanding that strong need actually makes a lot of sense when we look at how the brain works, when we look at some of the psychological theories was really validating. And, you know, as Carl Rogers always argues, right? When you can accept yourself exactly as you are, then you're capable of change. And so I don't think that change necessarily means you change yourself, but you may change the conditions under which you're operating to so that you can succeed in meaningful ways, right? So I think knowing that choice and agency are great opportunities to, you know, in a simply put way, increase dopamine, which is what many of us people with ADHD don't have reliable access to. Having choice can boost that for us, which then puts us a better in a better position to do the things that we're wanting to do. And outside of all like the neurochemistry, like the feeling of having choice and being in charge and being the author of your own life, there's something really incredible about that feeling. And it often is one of the best feelings that I think we can experience. So understanding how important it is while also connecting to that experiential part of it really was validating and I think opens up those doors to make choices, right, that are more in line with what you're actually wanting for yourself.

Micro Choices And Dopamine Hits

Garry Schleifer 5:54

Yeah. When you were talking about that with dopamine, especially in those decisions, it reminded me of the instructions, the tips for restoring a sense of choice you put in the article. And a reminder to our to those of who haven't read the article, it's on page 42. You said, and I've heard this many times, so thank you for highlighting step number four or part part, another four aspect, highlight small, high impact micro choices already being made. And I think you could take it even further and say, when you're struggling with a big choice, try breaking it down and making smaller choices. And as my friend Meredith Canaan says, it jolts the dopamine and you get small hits versus waiting for a long hit, which may never come because you're not getting the little ones in between.

Eliza Barach 6:51

Yeah, so that's similar to kind of the concept of delay aversion or delaying gratification. So, particularly with ADHD, we struggle much more with delaying gratification, meaning that we might say no to something, no to the small reward now in service of a bigger one. So we're less likely to do that, of like waiting that long. So the classic experiment was Michelle's experiment of like the the marshmallows. So little kids were given the option of having a marshmallow right now, or if they waited, I think about five minutes, they could have two marshmallows. So some kids were quick to say yes to the current marshmallow instead of waiting, you know, in hopes of two. So us ADHDers, we are more likely to say yes to the marshmallow now. So to reverse engineer that though, like if you can create smaller moments of choice that may have inherent rewards in them, that can put you in a better position to make it to that, you know, that long haul, that end point. And choice, I think, is a way to you know inherently bring in the reward. Like I'm choosing to do this small version, and this is how I'm choosing to do it, which could put you in a better position to enjoy the process, which could be inherently rewarding. Um, and intrinsic motivation, of course, is so important for everybody, but again, especially for people with ADHD. If we can bring the reward to the moment of the doing, we're in a much better position to actually do that thing and then do the sequential things and of course, yes, dopamine is involved in in all of

Why We Lose Sight Of Choice

Eliza Barach 8:27

that.

Garry Schleifer 8:27

Yeah, well, I find it also very fascinating. So different, just a little bit of a twist here. You wrote that a lot of people think of choice as something obvious, but it's obvious, it's sometimes more hidden. Why is choice so easy to lose sight of?

Eliza Barach 8:45

I think because we sometimes just kind of operate on you know default mode. Sometimes we can move through the world in a more perfunctory way, which is not always, you know, the best or the most fun way to do it, but our brains are really invested in conserving energy. And so automaticity is built for us or you know, inherent in us so that we can have more resources for you know those crisis moments when that saber-toothed tiger finally comes and gets us, you know, in 2026. So it it can be difficult to see choice when we are running a bid on autopilot, right?

Garry Schleifer 9:26

Yeah, no kidding. I love that fight, flight, or what is it?

Eliza Barach 9:33

Freeze, I think. Fight flight or freeze.

Garry Schleifer 9:35

There we go. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, it made me laugh at the saber-tooth tiger.

Eliza Barach 9:41

It's like we gotta be ready.

Narratives And Perception Without Shame

Garry Schleifer 9:45

I know it's gonna come Jurassic Park all over again. Eliza, in your article, you state that past experiences and internal narratives just shape decision making. How can coaches help clients notice these patterns without making them feel judged?

Eliza Barach 10:02

So it's a great question, and it's something we have to definitely, you know, carefully navigate. But I think just kind of going through different times in their life when they've made decisions that they felt really good about, and then maybe decisions they were less confident or less thrilled about, walking through our past experiences can help bring into consciousness the things that shaped our choices. But at the same time, I'm a big proponent of bringing in science to my sessions, both in terms of how I run them, but also giving people that knowledge. As a former researcher, I still kind of dabble in it. I do parts that I like, but I think you know, what's the point of having all of this research if it's not getting to the people who need it the most? So, in service of that, I will explain a bit of how perception works for people. And so simply kind of put, there's two different types of perception that can happen. We have what we call bottom-up perception, which I think of most simply as what you see is exactly what you get. And then we have top-down perception, which is basically where when information comes in, our brain will apply past experiences or it will apply the context that we're operating in to then basically interpret the physical information that we're getting. So this is why, like, you know, two people could get the exact same information, but have widely different interpretations of it, because their past may influence how they actually perceive it. So explaining that to clients can really help them reduce the shame in in terms of maybe the interpretation that they're originally having, because it's like, oh, well, it makes sense that I might see this situation a certain way, because in my past, when I was in a situation like that before, you know, it wasn't safe to like argue for what I needed or I had a bad experience. And so our brain is quick to kind of influence the narrative, also in service of saving, you know, cognitive resources. But it's not always accurate because these signals, while they may be similar to a previous experience, they're not exactly the same. And there are times when we can over-interpret um what's going on, and then that doesn't serve us, and other times it actually might be right on par.

Garry Schleifer 12:25

Yeah. So, so what do you actually do? Do you just say what did you learn or what would you have done differently? Like those sound like very non-judgmental phrases. It's what I would use. Does that sound yeah?

Eliza Barach 12:42

Questions like that, or even like what do you think may have influenced your decision in this time or you know, at that point in time? When and if we're talking about like a current decision um or a current choice, we may ask, you know, when did you find yourself in a similar situation before? What parallels between now and the past do you think exist? What factors are at play? And also what do you think is different?

Garry Schleifer 13:09

Yeah, yeah, good point. And that's come up a lot. And especially, I'm also working on another shoe on uh about chaos, and it's also um fear of making decisions, even though you know what the choices can be. And it goes back to making small decisions that they can feel comfortable with and not have a history with, maybe, but you know, but relating to that and and yeah, drawing from that. Oh, that's that's very good to to hear. It's always good to be validated.

Eliza Barach 13:42

I agree. That's I often will you know go back to the literature and then when I'm like, okay, no, I I do know what I'm doing, like this is the right, this is the right idea. So I definitely hear you on that one.

Garry Schleifer 13:56

Yeah that's what I love about coaches. We're so like always learning, but always there's this little bit of humility and just like, oh, let me make sure, and you know, and course correct or whatever you need to do. So that's love my profession, love what I do.

Making Decisions From Values

Garry Schleifer 14:12

I an example of a decision I made based on values. And I want to ask you a question after, but I'm gonna share it first. So I was working for, I was a majority shareholder in a company and that and self-employed, but merged with another company, that kind of thing. And we were looking for someone to work with, another company to work with, bias, whatever. And I trusted the team that was going to look for these deals, and so I stayed back and managed the business so that we didn't lose any traction on sales and operations, stuff like that. And one day they came back and my name was not mentioned on the document, and they were ready to roll. And I just didn't know what was going on, so I'm gonna call on you to help me break this down. I didn't realize till afterwards it was because my values of dignity, trust, fairness, and equity were all trumped on. But I didn't know I had those then. How do you make decisions from the values instead of reacting and figuring out afterwards or were both are both scenarios okay?

Eliza Barach 15:24

I think it's definitely, I think both scenarios can be okay because I think sometimes we don't know what our values are until they're tested. And that I think is a great example of that. It became very apparent what mattered to you internally. You knew something was up, but you couldn't quite put your finger on it until you had that space and you need to think about it and process. So I think moments like that are opportunities for us to externalize those values and make them more readily available. So the next time something like that happens, you're not solely having to rely on your ability to like go into your long-term memory and pull those things out. Some people may be better at that than others, but I know for at least my clients with ADHD, I often encourage, I do this myself too, but I encourage us to externalize those values, whether it's literally writing them so that they're available to you or just having representations of them. So I think lived experience is the best teacher. And so helping us um excavate what our values are. My favorite way to do that is through our own life versus, you know, going through some of the inventories. Yeah, well, I think inventories totally have a great place for sure. They can be a really great starting point, but I do think some of the most powerful excavations are by going through previous experiences, like I mentioned before, with explaining top-down and bottom-up process or uh perception or processing, kind of using your past to help inform your present and your future because it's gonna be a bit more meaningful if you can apply it to your own life and so trying to do that as much as possible because it's also gonna be a clearer lens or example. Lens maybe not so always so clear, but at least like you will have kind of more of an understanding of that experience and more connection to it, especially being able to see the values actually like being played out, if that makes sense.

Garry Schleifer 17:26

Yeah. You know, go back to what you said about the values inventory. It'd be funny you should say that because I had just recently started as a coach and I had been doing the values inventory with my coach, and I had the nice rosy family, friendship, all this sort of stuff. And then as they say, the shit hit the fan, and I'll end to the lived experience, like you said. It was just like real life. It was like, oh, those are the real ones. And going forward, also even noticing like I can't watch certain TV shows when I start seeing where they're where there's such uh inequities and and unfairness, bigotry, and things like that, or I can anticipate that that's happening. I have to shut it down and go watch something else because I start getting a visceral reaction. So that's another thing to to watch for is not just your mind,

Somatic Signals And Coach Awareness

Garry Schleifer 18:22

but your body. What's your body doing with somatic awareness, right? Yeah.

Eliza Barach 18:27

Oh, a hundred percent. And I always I'll often say that to clients too like when like going back through that experience, like what got kicked up in you, not just what did you think cognitively or like feel emotionally, but like were there any signals in your body? And I know um I've struggled myself with the somatic stuff and some people with ADHD will struggle with that too. But a big one, yeah, yeah, because some of it has to do with like regulating your attention and being able to direct it, you know, to your body. And so we know too in the literature, people with ADHD often struggle with both proprioception, which is like basically awareness of how your body moves through space, and also interoception, which is being able to listen to those internal signals in the body. Yeah, so a lot of it again is like regulation just broadly, but being able to direct your attention to these different signals in the environment, both externally and then internally. But that kind of being said, I remember at the ICF conference, I was in Janet's talk on coaching supervision, and she talked about like where do you feel things in the body? And it helped me make this connection in my own coaching where I might be like there might be a value that gets triggered for me in a session, and I'll want to pursue that value, but it's my value, not the clients. And what gives me that signal now is my ears get hot. And it was her talk that made me realize that. And so now I just also look for that signal too. Like, do I have tension in my, you know, on my shoulders and my chest? But the real dead giveaway is are my ears hot? And if they are, then I may be coming up against like a values conflict, which then can influence my choice, right? So that awareness of those signals, both I think cognitively, emotionally, but bodily too, can help you also make more empowering choices that keep you in alignment with your values. So certainly externalizing them, but also looking for the different signals in your body to help you then also make that decision. Or it may be like that signal happens, like my ears are hot. Let me consult with my externalized values and see what might be getting kicked up.

Garry Schleifer 20:52

I like that consult with the values. Hey, values, what are you telling me today? No, but seriously, that's you know, rather than such a reaction like I had. Now I can and I guess in again, years of lived experience, you start to sense what you know your body's saying, and you're seeing, for example, my example reading on TV, right? So wow, that's amazing. Thank you so much. I want to quote something that you wrote the last paragraph. I thought it was awesome. Coaching offers a space where clients learn not only to make aligned decisions, but to trust themselves as the authors of these decisions. It becomes a practice of designing for agency one choice at a time. Brilliant. Thank you. Anything else that's going on for you? And what's what is it that you didn't get to say that you might have wanted to say in the limited space of the article?

System One System Two In Coaching

Eliza Barach 21:51

Oh, I mean, that's a great question. I think like actually expanding on the quote that you just pulled from it was some of Daniel Kahnman's work with system one and system two thinking, which kind of speaks to the automaticity piece that we were talking about. So basically, you know, system one, and it's not like an actual like system in the brain. It's like, you know, a bunch of different areas coming together to work in synchrony. System one is that automatic kind of operational system. So it is concerned with efficiency, whereas system two is the more effortful system. And so, in terms of the coaching space, part of our job is actually working with system two, the effortful side, so that we can actually curate system one. And so that's kind of what I mean about it being like a process and building in a bit of automaticity, but in a way that serves you. So every time we practice making a choice that's actually in line with our values, or um even just taking the moment to be like, I'm making this choice, like regaining the autonomy, recognizing choice. Every time we do that, it helps actually curate system one to do that more automatically. So I often think of coaching as a space where we use that system two, the effortful reflection and engagement to help curate our automaticity, our system one, so that it is a bit easier to live in alignment. Of course, that doesn't mean it's a cure-all and that we always do that.

Garry Schleifer 23:25

Well, it's gonna work every time.

Eliza Barach 23:28

Yeah, yeah. Silver bullet syndrome is like what I like to call it. But at least, you know, more often than not, we can be operating in that space. So it's a skill to be built like anything else.

Garry Schleifer 23:40

Yeah, well, thank you for that. That's brilliant. What a great addition.

Treat Every Choice As Data

Garry Schleifer 23:44

What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation?

Eliza Barach 23:49

Make good choices. No, I'm just thinking.

Garry Schleifer 23:51

One of my clients ends that off every call. She tells me, make good choices.

Eliza Barach 23:58

It's a good reminder. I think my hope for readers and listeners is just to also give yourself permission to make to make choices, like good or bad, because everyone we make is really a piece of data. And of course, it's very easy for me to say this, but I do really emphasize that, like, you know, there's no right or wrong, there's only opportunity to learn. And in the moment, it often doesn't feel like that. So again, I'm not gonna sit here and be like, oh, everything is great. It's like it's totally okay if it's not, but giving yourself that space to either be upset or even just be reflective and take stock of, you know, what choices am I really proud of? What choices felt good, what choices, you know, maybe I'm not as proud of, and what could I do differently? And again, it is a process and it will continue to evolve, and you continue to evolve because life is dynamic and this world is very dynamic, especially, especially as of late. Um and so to expect that you'll be exactly as you are today, um, you know, versus a couple, even a couple months in the future is is a bit unrealistic. And so giving yourself again that permission to evolve um as the world evolves too.

Garry Schleifer 25:19

Yeah. You've reminded me I have a saying with my clients, it's like, because we'll say, you know, we'll talk about what they could do and what they might do. And then I say, What will you do? And then I and then I said, and by next call, you either will or you won't. And there's learning in both.

Eliza Barach 25:37

Yeah. I always I like to ask that question too. Mine's a little bit maybe cheekier or punchier, but I always say, like, what are you actually going to do?

Garry Schleifer 25:52

And I often Yeah, I say that too. Oh yeah, I'm being kind today. You're being mean.

Eliza Barach 26:00

I always say like, no judgment. I'm like, listen, like we all we have some really great ideas, and that's fine, but like let's think about potentially the worst, you know, the worst version of yourself, and yeah, let's plan to that version. You can always do more. That's that's never the issue, right? Often the issue is getting us to start. So I'll say, you know, I'll say, listen, like I know, like I like the big badass plan. That's my preferred, you know, self-image. But like, what do you think you'll actually do? And whatever that is, like, that's totally okay. I'm on board with you.

Garry Schleifer 26:34

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And let's learn, let's see what happens. See you next time.

How To Connect And Closing

Garry Schleifer 26:43

Oh my goodness. Thank you so much, Eliza. What's the best way for people to reach you for more information?

Eliza Barach 26:49

Yeah, you can just check out my website. It's www.neural-revolution.com. I run a newsletter every month that covers, you know, ADHD specific topics, talking about the research and trying to translate that research into you know useful application. It targets both people with ADHD, but also practitioners who might work with them.

Garry Schleifer 27:13

Right. Great. I can think of one right now. I will definitely send along this podcast as well as your information. Again, Eliza, thank you so much for writing for us and for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode.

Eliza Barach 27:28

Yeah, well, thank you again for the opportunity. It was awesome to chat. And yeah, thank you so much.

Garry Schleifer 27:35

Hope to see you again. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here in the first place. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine and you're watching this podcast, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right corner of my screen. If you're in audio only mode and you're no longer driving or you're off the treadmill, you can go to choice-online.com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.