Episode 194: Coaching Through Chaos with guest, Laura Berman Fortgang

Chaos doesn’t just interrupt our plans. It rewires our attention, shrinks our options, and convinces us we’re out of control. That’s why I’m thrilled to sit down again with Master Certified Coach Laura Berman Fortgang, author of “Coaching in Chaos: Navigating a Rapidly Changing World,” to unpack what actually works when clients feel overwhelmed, reactive, and stuck.

We get practical fast. Laura shares a deceptively simple coaching move that can stop a spiral mid-sentence: separate what’s controllable from what isn’t, then choose the next controllable step. We also dig into the distinction between facts versus interpretation, and how catastrophizing can hijack decision-making in uncertain times. Along the way, we talk about boundaries (what’s mine vs what’s theirs), how coaches avoid getting “hooked” by a client’s drama, and how we help someone unhook without minimizing what they’re facing.

From there we move into resilience and recovery. Laura reframes resilience as the ability to bounce back without taking chaos personally, and she introduces the idea of an on purpose distraction, a conscious break that restores joy and protects your nervous system. We also explore how to prepare for chaos in business and life with reserves, systems, backups, and real-world “what if” planning, including a client story where the preparation mattered right on time.

If you coach leaders, run a practice, or simply want steadier footing in a rapidly changing world, this conversation will give you language, tools, and next steps you can use immediately. Subscribe, share this with a coach or colleague, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Laura here.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Garry Schleifer 0:07

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of Choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into this latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author beside me, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and do what we love to do, make a real difference in our clients' lives. Remember, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching, but for now, let's dive in. In today's episode, I get the honor of again speaking with personal coach Laura Berman Fortgang, who is the author of an article in our latest issue, Coaching in Chaos. Her article is entitled Coaching in Chaos: Navigating a Rapidly Changing World. A little bit about Laura. She's an MCC and literally a pioneer in the personal coaching field. She's been around since what, day one or before? Yes, and part of a lot of stuff. She's a five-time best-selling author, published in 13 languages, a book award winner, a sought-after speaker, a TV personality, Oprah and many other shows she's been on, uh, corporate spokesperson, interfaith minister, and as we all know, well, I know, performer. Her TEDx talk currently boasts more than 2 million views. She's best known for her career transition, now what methodology, and her mentorship of coaches in her A-List coach program. And I hope when we get through this call before we finish, you'll tell us a little bit about that and how people can find out more. But for now, oh ah you were also on the Editorial Board of choice Magazine.

Laura Berman Fortgang 2:06

The original, the OG.

Garry Schleifer 2:11

And I just have to say, just a dear friend, that I have just you bring smiles to my heart every time we get together. So thank you for not only co-leading and just just being you.

Laura Berman Fortgang 2:25

Thank you, Garry. Feelings mutual. I miss you. I know you're not been coming to the states so much right now, but we've hung out at conferences.

Garry Schleifer 2:36

Oh, yeah.

Laura Berman Fortgang 2:37

You know, had we've had meals together. It's been a blast.

Garry Schleifer 2:41

Well, come on over to Berlin in 27.

Laura Berman Fortgang 2:44

You know, it's not a bad idea.

Garry Schleifer 2:46

I'll be there.

Laura Berman Fortgang 2:47

Were you in Paris?

Garry Schleifer 2:48

Yes, ma'ma. Oh lala.

Laura Berman Fortgang 2:52

Oh lala.

Garry Schleifer 2:53

It was awesome. And some New Jersey friends coaches were there too. So we'll talk more about that some other time. Okay, so have to laugh because the reason we did this issue, chaos, not the no, that wasn't it. We were looking for co-leads. I love collaborating, that's one of my values. And Susie Pomerantz and I came up with your name, and I still remember the email when you said, Are you trying to tell me something? And when I read this article, we couldn't have picked a better person. Oh what you wrote was the lead feature and really encapsulated so many aspects of not only coaching the client on chaos, but how to help yourself prepare for chaos. So what did you get out of being a part of all of this?

Laura Berman Fortgang 3:52

Yeah, I mean, I got to co-lead with you and and be able to ask other people to play with us and do that, and you know, just being able to always get a perspective of what other coaches are thinking by looking at the whole, you know, all the people who gave us something to look at in terms of being part of the issue. It's just great to see different perspectives, and that's the beauty of this issue. Like it's you know, it's not just page after page about chaos, chaos, chaos. It is chaos in a context, right? But different angles on to how to deal with it, how to see it, how to live with it. And so I just took away the the joy of the spice of variety, right? And getting to see all the different ways, the lenses that people see stuff through, right?

Garry Schleifer 4:46

Oh, yeah, and so many lenses when it comes to chaos. I just realized that I used something from this article when I was rereading

Control What You Actually Can

Garry Schleifer 4:55

it this morning. I'm like, I just used this with a friend of mine yesterday. In your article, you say start by helping clients distinguish between what they can control and what they can't, and I was literally using it with a friend who was just like, oh my gosh, overwhelmed near tears, the whole bit. And I don't know why, but my Laura Berman Fortgang came through. And I said, So, what's one thing that you can control right now? And like it really stopped him in his tracks, yeah.

Laura Berman Fortgang 5:29

Cause when it comes to chaos, so much is out of your control, you know. So, how do you not feel powerless and not how do you not have it take you over like a tsunami is to figure out all right, what first of all you got to figure out what's me and what's other people too. Like you've got to separate whose chaos is it, whose monkeys and whose circus?

Garry Schleifer 5:50

Whose circus, whose monkeys, right?

Laura Berman Fortgang 5:53

Right, because sometimes people other people create chaos just in their own way that they're addicted to drama, right? So really separating what's me, what's them, what's real, and then what can I control? Because ultimately when there's chaos, like there's so little you can control. So it's almost like if you look at it like a bullseye, you know, and you're in the middle of the bullseye, it's like what are the layers of like of control? All right, I can't control what's going on in the world right now. I can't control going what's going on in my nation. I can't control what's going on in my town. Oh, but I can control my attitude, or I can control how I talk to people, or you know, or what are the metrics that I can control in my business, and what are the ones that I can't. So I think it's huge for getting people grounded again is really looking at what's mine, what's not, and what can I control.

Garry Schleifer 6:52

Yeah. It's funny you should say that because that really resonates with the workshop I'm leading right now. Managing in times of uncertainty. And one of the key things is bringing it down to the now. Yeah. So what can I control? What can't I? That's to your point. What's true right now versus catastrophizing versus right? And you talk about that too, about catastrophizing in there. Like we tend to go like fight or flight, and we go crazy.

Laura Berman Fortgang 7:29

Well, it reminds me of, you know, I was trained by Thomas Leonard and one of the original Coach U students, and he used distinctions, and one of my favorite distinctions is facts versus interpretation. You know, like what's a fact and what's your interpretation of what's going on? You know, what's really true? It's what you're saying, you know, what's really true, and what is catastrophizing or overdramatizing or editorializing or you know, just making it take off in a way that it doesn't need to. Yeah, what are the facts, ma'am?

Garry Schleifer 8:01

Yeah, the facts, ma'am, nothing but the facts. Just the facts. What was that? Dragnet or something?

Laura Berman Fortgang 8:07

I don't know.

Garry Schleifer 8:08

It was one of those really old shows.

Don’t Get Hooked By Drama

Garry Schleifer 8:13

Laura, what's the biggest mistake people make during times of chaos? Other than the ones we just said, or maybe it is those.

Laura Berman Fortgang 8:21

Um, it's those, but also like I'm thinking in terms of coaches, you know, when I mentor other coaches and and they get all worked up at the same time that their clients are worked up, I think the biggest mistake is getting hooked. You know, like getting like you're on the fish hook. Yeah. You you get hooked into the drama, and it's like, you know, it's their drama. It could be an interpretation, it could be everything we're talking about, but like don't get hooked. You know, don't don't go with the energy of it.

Garry Schleifer 8:54

Try to find hold on a pause. Are you talking about the coach or about coaching the client not to get hooked by others?

Laura Berman Fortgang 9:01

I think it's really both. It's really both. I mean, like, if we think of like, you know, speaking to coaches, you can't get hooked by the drama. And then how do we get the person who is hooked to the drama on the drama unhooked?

Garry Schleifer 9:14

Right.

Laura Berman Fortgang 9:14

I think it's a dual purpose.

Garry Schleifer 9:16

Right. Well, thank you because you've given us some tips in the article about what we can do as coaches to prepare to work with clients dealing with chaos. And so some great tips. Thank you for that. Because refer to those on a regular basis since I've seen them.

Laura Berman Fortgang 9:36

Because you've absorbed them.

Garry Schleifer 9:38

Well, I hope you know, to all of our listeners, I love doing this because I always get to choose a topic that I want to know more about, and so it feeds my curiosity to talk with writers, engage with writers, and then interview, read the articles, obviously, and read them multiple times before they go to press, and then interview with it too, because I'm a coach as well, and these are very practical things for me to use in my day-to-day work.

Laura Berman Fortgang 10:12

Do you get CEUs for reading all these articles? You should.

Garry Schleifer 10:16

Oh, you know what? I asked about that, but I think it's one of those things that you need to like how do you prove that someone has read all of the issues?

Laura Berman Fortgang 10:25

Right, you have to document everything, but you know, because you get to sit there at the helm and absorb all this wisdom that comes in at you every month, or as you get used as you get ready for the for the issues. Yeah, it's like you you get a training every time. That's amazing.

Garry Schleifer 10:42

It is. I was just yesterday, one of my clients, she to me represents joy. And as you may know, we recently did a joy issue, and she took the four main aspects of what it took to have joy in your life and put it on the back of her company name card. In colors and like she had AI or something do it, and she shows me that regularly, right? That she took that from the joy issue.

Laura Berman Fortgang 11:15

So cool.

Joy Through On Purpose Distraction

Garry Schleifer 11:16

Yeah. So now how do we get back to joy when we're in chaos, Laura Berman Fort gang?

Laura Berman Fortgang 11:21

Oh, well, isn't that a question? Combining issues on me, all right. Um, okay, that's a good question. Well, disconnecting from the chaos, right? Uh getting back to what you can control. Like, you know, you're not a silo, you have a support system, hopefully. But when it comes to getting the ick off of you of chaos, like you are a silo. It's like, you know, what belongs elsewhere. And then choosing an on-purpose distraction, you know, like you can't live in chaos all the time because it's just going to ruin your adrenal glands and you know make you unable to sleep. So how do you ignore for a moment and do something that's joyous and pleasurable, whatever that may be, you know, and take a break, take a break from the chaos. That's how you get back to joy.

Garry Schleifer 12:18

On purpose distraction. Well, that really stopped me in my tracks to say it that way: an on-purpose distraction, like going for a walk or or even just getting up and moving around, somatic exercise.

Laura Berman Fortgang 12:32

Yeah, playing with your pet, you know, whatever the case may be, because most of the time we distract ourselves as a coping mechanism, but I'm saying on purpose distract ourselves.

Garry Schleifer 12:45

Oh, well, I'm having an on-purpose distraction after this podcast. Do some shopping for my mom in the German grocery store, you know.

Laura Berman Fortgang 12:54

Oh, nice.

Garry Schleifer 12:56

Yeah. What was it you just said? Oh, I can't remember now. But I forgot what I was gonna ask. See, that's what's being present causes.

Laura Berman Fortgang 13:13

Yes, it does. I was talking about being a silo. Was it the silo thing that interested you? All right, whatever, shake it off. Take it off.

Resilience That Bounces Back

Garry Schleifer 13:24

You talk a lot about resilience. So, how does one build resilience?

Laura Berman Fortgang 13:31

When I you know, when I think of resilience, I think of a bouncing ball. You know, like it doesn't it doesn't stay down for very long, right? It bounces back.

Garry Schleifer 13:41

Right.

Laura Berman Fortgang 13:42

So how do you do that? I mean, so you've got to shed the weight of the chaos or shed the weight of the problem. I think using that that distinction tool, fact versus interpretation, what's real? What can I control?

Garry Schleifer 13:58

Right.

Laura Berman Fortgang 13:59

Um, and then also resilience is not taking it personally, right? So did you know, do you interpret it as a failure? Do you say, oh, it was me, I'm dumb, or why can't anything work out for me? You know, like you have to not take it personally.

Garry Schleifer 14:16

Right.

Laura Berman Fortgang 14:17

Chaos. Don't take it personally, it's just life lifing or business businessing, right? It's not personal, and I think that helps you bounce back.

Garry Schleifer 14:28

Yeah, you know, and I just remembered what I was gonna say.

Laura Berman Fortgang 14:32

Oh, okay.

Garry Schleifer 14:33

As well. So thank you about the resilience, and we'll have to mentally remember that ball. But you talk in the article about helping people prepare for chaos.

Systems And Reserves For Chaos

Garry Schleifer 14:47

So tell me a little bit more about that.

Laura Berman Fortgang 14:49

What's yeah, I mean, preparing for chaos is like you can't exactly predict what the chaos is gonna be, but it's having things in order. Do you know what I mean? That you have an organization system normally, that you let's say it's in business, it's KPIs, key performance indicators, you know, like things that you know, benchmarks that need to be hit, that you have systems in place, that you have support. Thomas Lenders, you call it reserves, you know, like he used to say, if your business burnt down, could how fast could you be back at work? You know, that will prove your preparation for chaos, right? Did you have the right insurance? Did you do you have someplace else where you could set up a pop-up shop, you know, whatever the case may be? So it's not a bad question to ask yourself, you know, it's not burned down figuratively, but I mean literally, maybe it's figuratively. But if everything, you know, went to hell in a handbasket tomorrow, what would you need to have in place to be back up in business within two days? You know, so it helps you think how to prepare for chaos is by having certain insurances in place, literally and figuratively.

Garry Schleifer 16:13

I was thinking of that one. Fire insurance. You know, you bring up a really good point because I remember back in the day when I ran a third-party logistics company. Um, well, I owned it and ran it, and we would look at um not having all the eggs in one basket.

Laura Berman Fortgang 16:31

Right, that too.

Garry Schleifer 16:32

And it reminds me of of the I guess the the thought, what's your weakest link right now? So in the article, you mentioned the accountant that only has the only password, right? And we thought about we had a majority of our revenue came from one client, and we were enjoying that and we were growing that business. But if that client ever said, Well, we're changing vendors, we were out . So we started going about doing diversifying our sales force and finding out, and we ended up with a bunch of other clients.

Laura Berman Fortgang 17:10

So that's preparing for chaos.

Garry Schleifer 17:13

Yeah, and then oh, my other favorite was we always had backups for everybody's roles, so people would be trained on a role, and then their job was to train someone else to be the backup so that if they weren't there or they had to go work on another project or they went on vacation, the backup person was there to do it. Standard operating procedures on everything.

Laura Berman Fortgang 17:36

Really smart company.

Garry Schleifer 17:40

Well, it it drew on all of my skills of organizing and for thinking things through. So when you talk about planning that, it really resonated for me.

Laura Berman Fortgang 17:55

Well, I think it's good for our coach listeners too. Like, even though you're a sole proprietor and a solo or a mom and pop shop, so to speak, you know, what who could who could replace you? You know, do you have a colleague who could take over your roster if God forbid you needed to take an extended break? Can things happen without you? I'm so grateful after 30 some odd years in business, you know, that I've always had a team of people that support the business. So if something, you know, if I fall out of the roster, there's a way to do something, you know, there's a way to get it done. And I I think even if you're just a solo proprietor, it's a good way to think and to prepare.

Garry Schleifer 18:39

And our my team has that too. We call it the what if scenario. Sound familiar?

Laura Berman Fortgang 18:46

Yeah, perfect.

Garry Schleifer 18:49

And literally, like, what if I was laid up? What if I died? What if I was sick for a long period of time? Uh, that kind of thing. So we're continuously building that backup of where are the records, who has the passwords, where's the access, things like that. So is that catastrophizing or is that fake catastrophe?

Laura Berman Fortgang 19:13

That's on purpose catastrophizing to prepare for chaos. So that's there we go.

Garry Schleifer 19:18

There we go.

Laura Berman Fortgang 19:19

Well, I mean, you have you have to, or otherwise you're naive.

Garry Schleifer 19:23

Yeah.

Real Client Example And Planning

Garry Schleifer 19:24

Um, Laura, do you have any recent examples of of a client that you're working with chaos and and how you help them?

Laura Berman Fortgang 19:31

Okay, okay, let's think. Let's think, let's think.

Garry Schleifer 19:33

An on-the-spot one.

Laura Berman Fortgang 19:35

I'm going through my head, I'm going through the roster. Yeah, I have a client who runs a multi-million dollar company. It's hers. And one of her kids got sick, you know, and before we started working together, she did not have all those systems in place for people who could back her up if she wasn't there or if she had to take a break or whatever the case may be. And in the timing was interesting that you know, she had to walk away, but we had already prepared her business in that way, but she didn't have that when she started with me. So she has a second in command now, she has you know, all the departments know what to do if she's not there, and that all happened since she and I started working together, and then she needed it. So luckily the pieces were in place.

Garry Schleifer 20:35

Oh, they did all that work before the children, yeah.

Laura Berman Fortgang 20:38

Yes, it's like you know, doesn't usually work out that way, right? That you're actually prepared for something and then something did happen, but we were prepared.

Garry Schleifer 20:49

Yeah, there's a thought that I've heard running commentary that most majority of people don't really think about the future because that's what the road, especially younger people and they don't plan for retirement because that's you know 50 years down the road or whatever.

Laura Berman Fortgang 21:11

Right.

Garry Schleifer 21:12

It's like that old saying, what's the best time to plant a tree 25 years ago? What's the next best time?

Laura Berman Fortgang 21:17

Now it's exactly right, you know. But that's when they say live for today, I mean there's wisdom in that, but there's also the reality of like, well, if you don't save for retirement, you live for today, there's a gonna be a today when you have no money, no resources, and they're taking your house.

Garry Schleifer 21:42

And you're a greeter at Walmart.

Laura Berman Fortgang 21:44

Right. You've got to do both, you've got to have one foot in the future and one foot in the present.

Garry Schleifer 21:48

Yeah. Oh, well said, thank you very much for that. So I think we're coming to a time where we're gonna close. And I must say, I'm feeling a bit of Chaos. I feel like we kind of went all the way around and we've come back. And I'm thinking, that's not such a bad thing to notice when you are in chaos and what it took to bring things back. Because you know, remember that moment where I couldn't remember what it was I wanted to say. Well, that's a good thing because I was fully present to what we were talking about. But I just have this feeling right now that we touched on a on a level of chaos in the conversation. It was it was all over, and yet it came back to uh uh uh some tips and tricks and examples. So thank you for bearing with me.

Laura Berman Fortgang 22:35

No problem. Hey, that's how it should be. Yeah, every every interview is going with the flow, even though you might have prepared for it, right? So the best interviewers go with the flow.

Garry Schleifer 22:47

Go with the flow. Oh my gosh, that sounds like coaching. Who knew? That's why I have so much fun and I don't worry too much about it. And especially being with you, you're a consummate professional, you've got a big heart. We all love you and all your psyched people. Your what do you call your no? What do you call your acting your other personas?

Laura Berman Fortgang 23:13

Yes, my other personas. I'm missing that other persona, I miss her.

Garry Schleifer 23:18

I miss her too.

Laura Berman Fortgang 23:20

I miss her.

Garry Schleifer 23:21

Conference in your future.

Laura Berman Fortgang 23:22

She was before TikTok, she'd be great on TikTok. Oh, and if we don't know what we're talking about, folks, I have a character called Life Coach Lurlene. And she's been in hiding for a while, but if you know, you know.

Garry Schleifer 23:39

Uh-huh.

Prepare For Chaos And Closing

Garry Schleifer 23:40

So, well, um, what would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation?

Laura Berman Fortgang 23:46

I would like them to prepare for chaos. Think about what do I need to do so that if something happened, I am prepared.

Garry Schleifer 23:54

And that's for the coach and the client.

Laura Berman Fortgang 23:57

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer 23:58

Right? Cool. Um, and before we go, tell us a little bit more about your program. Yeah, I have a program. A lot of people find out more.

Laura Berman Fortgang 24:06

Yes, you can go to thealistcoach.com or Laura Bermanfortgang.com. You'll find it either way. And I have a program for coaches on the business side of the business called the A-List Coach. So I mentor coaches on the business side of the business. You spent all this money getting trained as a coach, and then you got to become an entrepreneur. Whole other ball of wax . So I'm here to help.

Garry Schleifer 24:32

Oh, and you do. Thank you very much. And thanks for all of your support for the coaching industry for choice Magazine. Really appreciate it.

Laura Berman Fortgang 24:40

It's an awesome magazine. Thank you.

Garry Schleifer 24:43

Thank you for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode, Laura.

Laura Berman Fortgang 24:47

My pleasure.

Garry Schleifer 24:48

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app. If you're not a subscriber to Choice Magazine, you can sign up for your free issue by scanning the QR code in the top right hand corner of our screen. If you are not watching but just listening when you're done on the treadmill or whatever you're doing, you can go to choice- online.com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.