Episode #7 ~ Racism...Owning or denying our rank and power with guest, Gavin Shaskolsky

In this episode I talk with choice Magazine Editorial Board member Gavin Shaskolsky about his article in our June 2021 issue titled Racism...Owning or denying our rand and power.

Gavin is a strategic and results-focused coach and facilitator with extensive experience at executive and senior levels in business. He enjoys transforming and leveraging people capability and organizational potential. Gavin has coached and facilitated for over 15 years in over 40 countries across 5 continents. He has coached hundreds of business leaders across multiple industries including Tech, Finance, Retail, Education, Health, Professional services and manufacturing. Gavin designs and delivers coaching, mentoring and leadership development interventions globally as well as supervising and training coaches. Gavin travelled extensively with his wife Justine, to ‘help’ him switch careers from law to people development. Gavin loves being in nature, taking part in multi day endurance events, traveling and learning from different cultures and people.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Website: sagewaysconsulting.com

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):

One hello, I'm Gary Schleifer. And this is the beyond the page episode brought to you by choice the magazine and professional coaching, the ultimate resource for professional coaches in this wonderful arena, professional coaching, or more than just a magazine choices, a community of people who use coaching in their work or professional lives. We've been building our strong, passionate following for almost 20 years. That's next year in today's episode, I talk with coach educator and leader Gavin Chaz. Kolsky about his article in choice magazine. This issue that a diversity equity inclusion from inclusion to belonging. Why DEI isn't enough? His article is on page 34 and it's entitled racism owning or denying your rank and power. So here's a little bit about Gavin. He's a global leadership coach has coached a thousand plus business leaders in over 50 countries across multiple industries, including tech, finance, oil, and gas retail telecom government goes on and on.

Speaker 1 (01:12):

I'm sure there's more he's he's also, and I'm so thankful for this. He's also a member of the choice editorial board. He's the MD of GSI coaching and co-founder of virtual coaching partners.com GSI coaching.com is a pervert coaching provider for Heartstyles globally, which we've spoken about. And you've written about he's designed, led, supervised and coached in coaching programs globally for over 15 years. I'm surprised you staying in one place. Gavin. Well, he's a credentialed practitioner for commence. He certified at the coaching center, S a C a P time to think international and process work Institute, quite the pedigree. I'm surprised you fit that in that little bio spot, all of that Gavin. Well welcome. And thank you so much for, for joining me today.

Speaker 2 (02:03):

Yeah. Thanks Gary. And it's always interesting to be introduced to are trying to remain grounded and humble. Yeah, it's it's wonderful to be. I'm super excited to have the conversation and also really appreciate the partnership with choice magazine. I we've actually just as a company, bought it for a subscription for all of our coaches quality magazine, so it's it's a privilege to contributes and I'm excited to have a conversation. So really looking forward to that. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (02:33):

Me too. And remind those coaches in your community that maybe it's their turn to Ray for choice and it's their turn to be on it on this podcast video podcast. So so let's get into the article. So, okay. Again, I have to kind of, for me, all of a sudden there was this elephant in the room, we're talking about racism owning or denying your rank and power. And I know you're going to talk more about this, but ranking here we are two white guys sitting here talking about rank and power. So it's kind of like you know, how does that land for you and, and how does that fit into what you're writing about with the article?

Speaker 2 (03:19):

It's a really, I mean, firstly, it's an important acknowledgement. And second, it's a really interesting question. I think that each of us in our own experience know what it's like to be marginalized and know what it's like to be in the mainstream. Some people in some groups spent the predominant experience in the Mac, in the mainstream and some in the marginal and individually and collectively, we all have our work to do. And two white men having a conversation about race is critical because we sit in quite a few mainstream roles, being white, being male being educated, being fairly well off and a number of other elements that might be in a rank in terms of mainstream. So I think that in my experience as a white person, as a white man too often the conversation around race is met with guilt, shame, judgment, blame.

Speaker 2 (04:25):

It's not me, it's them. Actually I come from the south African experience and background or that I'm living in Israel at the moment for the last few years. And one of the most common things you'll hear from people who are switched off as white people around race as well. Now I feel that race, you know, the system's racist against me or against white people and by its definition, racism in the context of our world, the white person, the system is racist. The human being is discriminatory. So while the system might discriminate to some degree in a white person's perspective, when you look at things like employment, equity and so on. And so there might be some element of truth in that, but the system itself can not be racist towards a white person because it's been set up by white people to be racist towards black people.

Speaker 2 (05:18):

So I think, and the other component I would add is as white people who are privileged by the mere fact that we have white skin, which is the most ridiculous thing, but that is truth. So do I choose to embrace that and use that privilege and rank well for the benefit of others to uplift and to shift and change society around me and behave and act as an ally, or do I choose to behave differently? And unfortunately there are too many people who are behaving differently and not willing to do that, the important and really hard work of acknowledging that, but just by the mere fact that white, I sit on the shoulders of generations of privilege. And therefore my commitment personally, and I think for us as to what can I do to equalize that without needing to feel bad about it, or even give things away necessarily, but what am I doing to uplift, to support to ally and to change the systems that we operate in, which are clearly discriminatory and racist when we talk specifically about people of color in our world.

Speaker 1 (06:26):

Yeah. No excellent points. And thank you for addressing that. And yeah, and I guess I have that, those feelings, a number of those, you know, guilt, not me. Yes. It's me. What do I take responsibility for? But bef before we get going further into the conversation perhaps you can give us an explanation of what are rank and power, so we can have add that to the conversation about racism.

Speaker 2 (06:52):

Yeah, sure. I think in some ways it's a really simple concept of principle to understand, and in other ways it's really complex and ever moving and shifting. So in its simplest form, we can say that power and rank or rank is the experience of power or powerlessness that an individual, a group or system has. So if we're talking about race, white people have the privilege and power black people, colored people native people in different countries where they've been dispossessed of land or power, et cetera, they are the ones who've experienced powerlessness in different forms. Some are very overt and some are very covered. And usually the covered ones are subtler and trickier. So on that level, simply put the experience of power and powerlessness is what rank is. Then we have layers, which I guess we'll get into, but maybe before, before we get deeper into it, rank is also contextual.

Speaker 2 (07:55):

And so it can shift and adjust based on the context we find ourselves in. So to take it from race, just for an example a few years ago, I was working with a really senior and really confident and powerful individual who was COO of a large organized multinational. And as we progressed in our work together, one of the things he wanted to work on was his lack of confidence and feeling anxiety that arose when he engaged with people at altitude, like diplomats prime ministers. So it really senior player, right. And I to get anxious or I'm going to be in that scenario,

Speaker 3 (08:34):

I can picture it, you can picture

Speaker 2 (08:36):

It. Right. And, and what was interesting was at the depth of it was he grew up poor. And so at a deeper level, he's always had a fear of failing, not having enough and not being good enough. These were the three kind of elements. And those sit in the space of psychological rank and social rank. When we look at them in a little bit more detail, and if you want, we can click a little bit into them, but it just shows you the different layers and layering that you can kind of go into as we start unpacking what is a concept, but bringing it into a practical experience, for example, another one of a colleague and friend of mine who we were at a conference together and she was describing to me the difference between arriving as a black female and a white male, and the looks that I get compared to her and the questions she gets asked compared to me. So these are all that sucker elements that take place in the ice there, or in the tone of voice. When the question that I dare to ask someone else that I never would, if that person has ranked first, that died. So in that simple statement of rank is the experience of power and powerlessness. It's the experience that is important because that will vary. And that context that comes with it is what almost kind of frames the experience of rank and power,

Speaker 1 (09:58):

Right? Wow. That's you know, I've, I've, I'm a white man of privilege and I've just never had what, some of these things that you've experienced. So when I do the work that I do to keep the conversation about diversity, equity and inclusion alive and, and the work through choice magazine and other, other venues, I lived through the stories. And when you say, you know, a white man walking into a room versus a black woman, walking into a room, it's through the stories that people tell me that I get an understanding of what that's like, because obviously I don't have that for myself. So it's just it, you know, there's another question. I don't know if we can answer this, but how did it become that white people were the power and non white people were not like, could it just easily been the other way around? Was there a point in time? And I don't know if you know that answer, but I've just all of a sudden I have this question. It's like, well, who put, who put the white guy in charge?

Speaker 2 (11:08):

It's an interesting question. I mean, firstly just without a judgment on, but just noticing nonwhite and why that itself creates this. Like what is right and non, you know, so people of color or whatever the term, you know, stand up that, I think that you know, I guess it really does come down to power and rank. So the people who chose to explore the world and then chose to bring their culture their religion, their belief system, et cetera, there are structures and systems then, you know, created a dominant ideology, philosophy, narrative story. And that's where, for example, if we just talk of the importance of the inner work as well. So if we look at rank and power, we have the external and how it shows up in the world, right? The world says in its narrative, white is better than black. It just, it says that all the time and if you're a black person and this is for my experience of sharing with black people, not to direct things that message, it's a really hard message to combat internally on the other side, which is if I keep getting a message in the world that I'm not good enough and if I'm lighter skinned or if my hair's like this, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (12:25):

And we've had examples of that recently again in South Africa. And I know in the states and elsewhere in the world where these subtle messages sometimes get shown up very obviously in the media or in advertising, et cetera. And so what happens with those messages is they get internalized and the world for people of color as much as what people need to work on our own feelings of supremacy or kind of, you know, what, yeah. Privilege that we feel. We've, we've gotten an earn just by sheer the fact that we're white at work, for example, if you think of people like Steve Biko in South Africa and I don't know as much, but I have come across some of the work of Malcolm X. It's a similar view of work on your own internal landscape as a person of color so that you are not as affected and not defined by the external messages stories, narrative that keeps getting given to you.

Speaker 2 (13:30):

So that psychological and spiritual work is why we also often find in our societies that the people like a Nelson Mandela or Martin Luther king if we're talking about, you know, South Africa and America is two examples, there are many others. They typically come from the less privileged and the less rank individuals or groupings because they forced to dig deeper and find. And that's why just another example from which is really interesting while white people in particular find it sine comfortable and difficult to talk about race because for so long, we've been sheltered and had the power to squash and push away and ignore and deny parts of ourselves by putting it onto other people, which is a whole nother part of the conversation. Whereas black people and people of color have been forced from a very many years, centuries, as you mentioned earlier to feel and be inferior.

Speaker 2 (14:29):

And so where do you go to, you have to find in your community and in yourself or where to build yourself back up. And unfortunately, a lot of the trauma of it is that many people in groups still struggle to this day to build themselves up. And some of my friends and colleagues who I'm keep learning from, in terms of the race journey, as people of color, that they, they get, you get traumatized in your energy, in your physiology, in your emotional mental makeup. So even if intellectually I get that this person's being discriminatory or this system is racist, it still hits me in my gut. And it knocks me out. I have a colleague and a friend who from time to time when we touch, it's like, I'm out of play for a day. I just need to process the trauma that I'm going through. You know, so yeah, probably I've gone a bit on a tangent of your question, but I think it's a, the world that we inherited. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:24):

Well, you know what, you kind of led into my next question about what makes you passionate about this topic? So I get that, like you've really had revealed there why you're so passionate, anything else you want to say about your commitment to rank power and well that's specifically racism?

Speaker 2 (15:48):

I think that from a very early age I've been very keen on finding justice and famous in the world. And that's a personal story, right? It's not like at the age of eight, it comes from our own psychology and own background, education parents, society I grew up in. And then in addition to that, you know, one of the places I am marginal when we're talking about rank is I'm Jewish, right? And Jewish people have, you know, one of the most discriminatory histories and still to this day in different ways and leave aside the story of Israel and the Palestinian people who are both victims and perpetrators at the same time, it's a really complex contexts and living in Israel, I'm seeing it more every day. So if I go back to my own history from a very early age I remember myself wanting to make a difference in the world and to help people who were underdogs.

Speaker 2 (17:01):

That's part of the reason how I found myself into leadership, coaching and development through interestingly, through becoming a lawyer. But that's also another story, I guess. I don't know if we probably all didn't have to remember LA law, which is where I thought, okay, this is what law looks like. And then I realized, of course, after practicing it for a few years, that this was not what I really wanted. So that's one part. Another element is I grew up in a context where my later uncle, my late grandmother and grandfather were quite active in the, a lot of white Jewish south Africans were very involved in the struggle in South Africa. And so that kind of got passed to me and family context as well. And to the point that my late uncle who was good friends with lb sex is a really well known Supreme court judge and an activist.

Speaker 2 (18:03):

He left South Africa because he couldn't stomach it anymore. And he actually came to live in Israel where I live today, same little town. So I think from a very early age in my own makeup, there's been a commitment and a desire. And as you said, maybe it's a passion to make a difference in the world and in the early phases of getting involved in my own development, particularly around race work. I remember two particular programs I was involved in real practical process work orientated stuff. For four years, you know, five, six day blocks, you know, four times a year or three times a year Contra member. And almost every conversation kept centering back into race work. And so the depth of that work and the enormous lessons I've learnt along the way, a number of many of them by making comments unconsciously, or being discriminatory without realizing it and perpetuating the racism of the system.

Speaker 2 (19:11):

And then being rightfully challenged for it. Sometimes being like an isolated in the group for that were really hard parts, but the commitment was always to be part of the solution. And so I think anyone who's embarking on the work of race work or any group that you feel is marginalized and you want to help or assist that helps not the right word, but be part of the solution. B being prepared to sit in the fire and make mistakes and be uncomfortable is critical. And I do see a lot of people are clients of mine, coaches, other friends, people in society who are afraid to make them steaks. And it's important to be willing to do that because the people who are, have been marginalized for so long they've been on the side of brutal tyrannical regimes and they still are prepared to help and listen, as long as you're doing your work, if you're not doing your work, I don't think, and I don't know, I think they should be too entertaining of us.

Speaker 2 (20:17):

And I think we have patients at times really runs thin and runs out. But I think if we show an a, a true willingness and a desire to do this work, we are met with the most incredible compassion, empathy, love, which we, as a people, as a group, white people never gave really as a group. I mean individuals. Yes. And so there's so much to learn from the people of color in own internal journey and just start owning our own shadows that for centuries we've been putting on to the individuals and the groups that we discriminate against, and then we make them the bad people. Can I add another example just while we love examples and listening to it? I just listened to a fascinating podcast with a black American jazz musician who wrote a book about the KKK. And he's being interviewed by this person.

Speaker 2 (21:17):

And he was asked, I got high, landed up writing it. And he tells a story over a period of a few years, but the first conversation was he was getting a lift with from a jazz club with someone who really liked his music, a white guy, and the guy was saying to him, yeah, but you know, all black people are. And he went off on them being murderers and rapists and you know, that the rhetoric he had learned. And so this guy said, well, that's really interesting because all the serial killers are white. And he went off that he knows I ain't go to them. And then he said, I don't know any black silicone. And so he started challenging this guy's narrative. And so after a few conversations, they became friends and any, in any event, this guy landed, I believe in the KKK and this individual who wrote this book has I think it through conversation and dialogue and listening, not judgment, not blame. He has convinced almost, or over 200 people from leaving the KKK. I found it absolutely fascinating, so that empathy, the ability to listen, but also hold a firm line. That challenges is right, phenomenal spirit, that white people often squashing ourselves and don't own. And don't develop

Speaker 1 (22:29):

I've, I've found the, the biggest inroads for, for a lot of people, including myself, is like in early days, realizing what my prejudice is were, and then having them fade away when I, when you meet people one on one our, our colleague and friend Beverly Wright does the Dallas dinner table, which does exactly that, how you can't have that narrative sitting beside somebody and talking about your kids, your life, your family common struggles like COVID and, you know, and all these kinds of things. It's just impossible. So, you know, I love that example because I know that in my own life and as I walked through the world, okay. So I am also six foot two. So I agree. And, you know, almost blue eyes. So it's like really got all the check marks of rank external rank. Right. And don't, I don't mind my internal work.

Speaker 1 (23:30):

So just to reflect back on, on what you wrote in the article about there are two, four types of rank to external and to internal. So when I'm reflecting now for our listeners is I I'm only become aware of all of this external rank. And I I'm, I feel that it's my job to use it for good, not evil, as they say, and to continually think about how I'm walking through the world. Like I used to just walk through the world as me. Right. Not knowing now I'm like, I live in a building that's like super multinational, like Toronto, if you Google the most multicultural city in the world, Toronto comes up. Right. I say that all the time, but I'll tell you in this building, it's so true as a language as you hear the people that you meet. And now not just because of your article, that just helps.

Speaker 1 (24:23):

That's part of my work is what you're saying in this article. I now think of, so what was their experience of other white men of privilege in their lives? Like, you know, I, it makes me be more polite you know, the people that clean our building they're there. Some of them are from south America and things like that, always saying hello to everybody. It's just, you know, something, it just didn't occur to me as, as possibly being important to someone else and important to myself too, to acknowledge the existence of these, of these people. So thank you very much for that. And I also want to thank you. The article itself took when I first read it, when I read the draft and before he put it in the magazine, it's just took this whole different line. That was like, oh, I never thought of rank and power. Right. Like, I mean, I thought about it, but I didn't think of it, you know, under the guise of the, of having it in this article. So I want to thank you very much for, for bringing us in and bringing your passion around it. What else would you like our audience to take away from this article in this conversation?

Speaker 2 (25:40):

Well, I think firstly, just to acknowledge the work of idle Mendell around rank and power writer, I'd love to say I came up with this, you know, like many things it's always informed by others and how we then Arnold Mindell. If people are looking for a really great book that deep dives, deep into rank and power and a few other key concepts in process work, which is what Anna Mendell founded. The book sitting in the fi is one of the best books that I've come across. So fire sitting on a fire, which, which is really the commitment to do our work as facilitators, as coaches and as human beings. I guess the other piece that I would want to call out and emphasize is that at the end of the day, these are constructs. They are frames with which we are taught from a young age to see and experience the world.

Speaker 2 (26:37):

And so from a young age, I'm taught to put on glasses or spectacles and see the world is green. Then I will see the world as green and someone seeing it as red will see it as red. And so if I'm brought up with concepts and ideas that are racist, discriminatory, hurtful I'm not bad. And what I've learned and grown up with that gets judged. Then I, I close and I defend and I deny and I blame, right? Because a human being will do that, especially when there's less awareness and a willingness to grow or maturity, that's done it a certain amount of work. And so I think our work together, whether we are white or people of color, or whether we are male or female, or whether we are Jewish or Christian or Muslim, or whether we are educated or less educated, is to be able to become more aware of our rec.

Speaker 2 (27:39):

I think this is the key part that I really want to emphasize rank is about becoming more aware. And once I'm more aware, then I can choose how I engage in the world to make it and transform it into a better place or I can choose not to. But once I am more aware, I have a lot more range in my choice and a lot more skills that I can develop to apply. And so going back to the example that you shared about the people in your building, by engaging with them as human beings and seeing them slightly differently we start developing a personal relationship and that personal relationship helps them and us break down these stereotypes, constructs and ideologies that quite frankly continue to separate us to see the difference rather than the common. And we know, especially these days, how much division and difference is being emphasized differences, natural, but the division that's coming out of this is right.

Speaker 2 (28:38):

That's wrong. Being a Republican or being a Democrat, being white, to being black, being, you know, a police officer or not, all of these divisions are being used as fuel to amplify the fire, especially by leaders and politicians. And we, we are in short supply of really awake, mature, and switched on leaders. And I think that's, yeah, why a lot of our systems are under pressure is because it's inevitable that maturity will come and I do believe, and I really hope that these systems as they are crumbling and will continue to crumble, I think in certain ways will be replaced by a deeper, transformative, more mature constructs, which see the rainbow that's there. And when we look at a place like South Africa and South Africa has such paradox in it in such complexity and in the last few weeks, South Africa, and I get chills even speaking about it, cause I've been in touch with a lot of friends and family and appliance and Africa has gone through a ticking time bomb that in some ways, I don't know if this is fair to say, but I've been kind of wondering when it's going to come in a few people I've spoken to him since, and it's been tragic and really intense.

Speaker 2 (29:59):

At the same time, if you're in touch with anyone in South Africa, not just the media that wants to sell you the sensational story. And it has been sensational is the heart of the people in Southern came out to protect each other and your property and clean up and help each other in a way that really demonstrates the humanity that exists is not Africa. That, to be honest, I haven't come across in many other places in the world. And so it's got this incredible dichotomy and paradox and that's maybe one of the reasons why I've always loved living there and I still miss it to this day and probably will end up back there someday. There's a, there's a willingness to engage in that dialogue. There is a maturity in dealing and healing, those wounds and the wounds are very much there still structurally politically, no doubt.

Speaker 2 (30:52):

And at the same time, when you look at the psychological and spiritual rank in South Africa, I think it's quite highly developed compared to many other countries, particularly the U S without judging it observation in being on a number of different groups and calls with people all over the world around these discussions is that I'm sorry, Africa actually is quite developed in its engagement and healing. And there's a long way to go. The trauma is deep, the trauma is centuries centuries, and it lives for centuries beyond us. Right? If, if our children are traumatized, their children's children will still be traumatized to a degree. It's just the way trauma works. And so we still healing. And if you look at, you know, 20 odd, 30 on years from, you know, democracy in South Africa or other places very early stages of healing lot of positive signs actually.

Speaker 2 (31:47):

And so I think I would also maybe just emphasize that in these conversations, who am I, when someone around me makes a comment that is positive and uplifting and optimum mistake about the future and how do I attribute and enhance that, and who am I when someone makes a joke or comment that can easily be left alone, or actually is a bit of a catch 22, because if you say something you're screwed and if you don't say something you're screwed, but you still willing because it's more important to be principled around that. Then not in me personally, there's been a number of relationships and conversations over the years that sometimes I didn't do it as skillfully as I would have liked. And over time I've gotten maybe more skillful, I hope, but I'm not prepared at any point to be part of a conversation.

Speaker 2 (32:39):

Or if someone says something even as a joke and not say something or not put up my hand and challenge it. And part of that is from my own experience as a Jewish person in the world as well, because the most powerful group in any context is the silent majority. And the people who stand by and watch. And that point is what enables any traumatic genocidal, discriminatory, racist experience to perpetuate. And so for me personally, that's a decision that I made a long time ago. Do I get it right every time? Definitely. I get a hell of a lot more hype, what I would like to encourage. And I want to hope that people are especially people who might be listening to this, that that's what they're taking away.

Speaker 1 (33:24):

Yeah. Well thank you. Because I always ask and you've already answered quite well, what you'd like our listeners to do. And if, you know, kind of goes to that premise that we tell the kids, if you see something, say something and guess what you and I are, all, all of us are learning individuals. And I, I feel the same way, but I'm not going to stop. I'm not gonna stop what I see isn't right. Or fair or unjust, and having a conversation about it. And I'm like, you I've made a mess of it a few times, but it doesn't stop me from wanting to try because our commitment is stronger than our fear of failure. So that's really great. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for being with me today on our, beyond the page episode. Just so much to think about, and it's a part of keeping the conversation alive and ongoing and observing and acting. So thank you. And being, of course, as we coaches know how to do Gavin, what's the best way for people to reach you if they'd like to know more or talk to or connect?

Speaker 2 (34:38):

Yeah, I think the most accessible ways would be through LinkedIn. You just type my name in and I'll pop up our website GSI coaching.com. And on there, you'll find my email address, which is a little bit, well, I mean, I connect that Gavin should skalski.ca if you can spell that

Speaker 3 (34:58):

Exactly. Well,

Speaker 1 (35:00):

It will be along with this episode as well. So thank you again, and that's it for this episode of beyond the page, please sign up to our email list@choice-online.com to find previous episodes or subscribe via your favorite podcast app so that you don't miss any of our informative episodes, more coming interested in getting a free issue of choice magazine, head on over to choice-online.com and click the sign up now button. And I think you'll get this issue. So that's the freebie we're offering you and Hey, if you'd like to be a writer and have the being interviewed here, there's the right for choice page, click that tab, put your name on the list. And every quarter we'll let you know the issue that's coming up in the opportunity. You'd be surprised how much wisdom you have that needs to be shared with our people, with our community. I'm Gary Schleifer, enjoy the journey to mastery.